Can I refill my A/C?

I would suggest something beside R134 which will not cool as well in that older system and developes higher pressures too which is not great on loder parts. I would suggest something like Envirosafe (hydrocarbon based) as it is about 30 to 40% more efficent than R134 and more efficent than R12 too and is not poisonous either like R134a. (they do not tell you take as it is toxic is breathed in any concentration of more than 100 ppm and can get you quick at around

1000 ppm (parts per million). The only way R12 or Envirosafe can hurt you by breathing it is if yuo breath only it and no oxygen otherwise it is harmless to breath. R134 was kinda forced on us by Dupont when there was other promising alternatives that were less toxic and more environment freindly too.

What utterly foolish and bad advice.

From you is certainly is/ Make no mistake R134A is DEADLY and for you to say my comment are foolish, show hwho the fool really is. Least us no forget ether than R12 used mineral oil and R134 uses PAG oil so your system has to be overcharge with oil a biy with added oil to allow R134 to bind to it while Hydrocarbon based refrigerants will bind to either oil well. Heck you could even use propane in your R12 A/C system and it will cool better than R134 will in it and you will say propane is flamable well so is R134 and it is even deadlier to breath when burned. It is very strange how they can call R134 environmental freindly when it is poisonous in native state and when it burns too. Also it takes about 20 years to break down too. It may be easier on Ozone than R12 was but it least R12 was not poisonous to breath. THe AirForce did a test on it to check the effect on battle damage leakage of R134 in passanger compartments and the test subject had a life threaten actack for it at a far lower level than expected. The average car A?C has enoungh R134 in it to be lethal in a faily ticht passanger compartent about 5 time over but you will never hear Dupont talk about that much either. It is bad stuff to work with.

----------------- The SnoMan

Also I forgot to add that the Kyoto Protocol Treaty calls for the banning of R134a in 2012 as it is not as safe or environmental freindly as some like to think it is. (Dupont that holds the patent is not happy about it either)

----------------- The SnoMan

Insults made by a hack mean little to me.

Where are all the deaths?

Anyone who recommends ignoring both common sense and the laws of the land couldn't be considered anything _but_ foolish.

So what?

R134 is NOT flammable. Read the MSDS for R134, it is stated plain as day. (you -can- read, can't you?)

Oh, so burning by HC is somehow less deadly? You are ignorant, plain and simple.

Hogwash. Again, it is not flammable, read the MSDS. As for poisonous, it has about the same effect on the human heart as too many cups of coffee.

Yes, and?

Either one can cause suffocation, as can HC.

Power window failure on an F-16? Or are you saying that you're too stupid to roll a window down if you saw a cloud of refrigerant forming inside a vehicle?

So where are all the deaths? The average car AC will hold enough HC refrigerant to blow the roof off, the windows out and the windshield out if there is a passenger compartment leak. An event under the hood can and will result in the compressor blown apart, the condenser blown apart plus collateral damage to various other underhood components, not to mention the damage it causes to recovery equipment, the contamination it causes to other recovered refrigerants, the necessity for legitimate repair shops to purchase expensive refrigerant identifier equipment so they know when they are dealing with this crap, the hazards to fire department and other rescue workers. If it is so good, why is there not one single OEM that uses or recommends it? If it is so good, why is it still not on the EPAs SNAP list after over 12 years? If it is so good, why is it that the EPA keeps a list of the incidents where people have been injured as a result of some Gomer filling a mobile AC system with it? If it is so good, why have 19 states banned its use in mobile AC systems over and above the federal ban on its use in mobile AC systems? If it is so good, why is there a movement in Australian government to ban its use in mobile AC systems?

Bullshit. I've been working with it for over thirteen years with no adverse effects.

Three things...

1) The U.S. is not a signatory to the Kyoto Treaty

2) How does this justify using something that is not proven safe, is proven unsafe and is against the law to use in a mobile AC system on public roads?

3) Why is your knowledge on the subject in direct lock step with the bozos at the flea markets that sell this crap?

KNo the real expert here is you, master of BS. THe US does folow the accord on refrigerants and R134a will be gone by 2012. YOu rerally should not talk about stuiff that you are not well versed in as it is likely that you do not even know how deadly R134a is either. Envirosafe (aslo known as R12A and a few other things) is based on cyclopropane and it is extremely popular in Austraila were they are more environmentally aware that current admin here whose only goal is profit no matter who or what it hurts. Someone would have to be even more foolish than you to take your "expert" advise on this subject because you have none.

----------------- The SnoMan

How about one when things go awary with fuel system huh? There is maybe 15 to 20,000 BTU of heat enrgy in a chagre of cyclopropane (you do know what a BTU is right?) and about 2 to 4 million BTU stored in your car in the form of fuel. Now which is the the bigger hazrd. Too hard for you? Maybe. ALso if this is your example of a expericained tech, I would really hate to see a in experainced one because they did not know what they were doing if they had a problem. Also you forget that R134a will burn and while it has a higher crtical tempature (you do know what that is right) than cyclopropane it has a lower self ignition temp than cyclopropane and when it does burn it is even deadlier yet. Just in case this is over your head, critical temp is when if can be lite in the preesnce of a spark or such and self ignition is when it will light off and burn on its own and R134a will self ignite before cyclopropane will. (BTW gas auto ignites at about

560 degrees or so depending on octane and cyclopropane takes about 2 1nd 1/2 times that so once again which is the bigger hazard under your hood?)

----------------- The SnoMan

"KNo?"

And this lends support to your recommended illegal filling of an AC system how?

"rerally?"

I can read an MSDS, something which apparently, you can't.

http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:lSYyl66ZHU4J: Sorry snoball, your claims and arguments are proven false.

Yeah, "no matter who or what it hurts."

So, other than believing the bullshit of some Gomer at a flea market, what are your qualifications? (besides having a shade tree and a backyard?)

Come to Wisconsin, you'll find my signature on plenty of CFC/HFC recovery certificates. (that means I teach the classes and certify those who can pass the class)

Tired argument that has nothing to do with the topic.

Let me guess, you run your vehicles on something other than a flammable fuel.

The bigger hazard is the illegal refrigerant charge installed in a system that was NOT designed for it, a system that co-occupies the passenger compartment, a system that contains components that are poorly protected in a crash because they are right behind the front bumper, a system made of light gauge aluminum that under ideal conditions are prone to leakage.

No, not in the least. But what else would one expect from someone without a bit of common sense? (not to mention knowledge of the law)

You make me laugh.

Why do you need to lie? From the DuPont MSDS for R134a; "HFC-134a is not flammable in air at temperatures up to

100 deg. C (212 deg. F) at atmospheric pressure.

So, where on planet Earth is the temperature above 212* F and if such a place exists, is there a more immediate problem besides R134a?

Where do you get this line of bullshit? Everything you state is contrary to every manufacturers MSDS for R134.

Another gem!

Note in the fifth paragraph where they mention; " "This is occurring in driveways and low-end garages all over the country." ^^^^^^

Low-end = Gomers!

Gomers= BOOM and higher costs to un-do the mayhem they cause.

Naturally, Gomers like snoball know waaay more than the people at MACS, IMACA and SAE.

Kinda like you huh? This can go on forever but not by my keyboard because you simply are not worth my time because you know a lot about nothing and stay that way if it makes you happy. You are a classic case of where a little knowledge is VERY dangerous. Have at it.

----------------- The SnoMan

Is that the best you got cupcake?

It hasn't gone on at all, all you've done is trotted out the same old myths and rumors that have been circulated around the shade trees for years.

Translation: my ass has been kicked, I have given no factual data to support my irresponsible/unprofessional position, I'm taking my ball and going home to mommy.

Funny that _you_ would use the word "dangerous." A guy that advocates filling automotive AC systems with propane/butane calling someone else "dangerous."

Please, the jokes are killing me... ... I can't stop laughing.

I mean really snojob, can't you find just one little itty-bitty piece of text to copy and paste that refutes anything I've posted?

'Course, it's pretty hard to refute blown up trucks, burned hands, bleeding cheek bones, broken window glass, fire extinguishers, etc. etc. etc., isn't it.

Browsing through a/c content in google and couldnt believe what I was reading. Thank goodness for cuda stepping up and speaking out.

The Kyoto Protocol Treaty is just that, a treaty, not a law (not ratified). It calls on industrialized nations to "decrease" their emissions of six greenhouse gases, not eliminate them. By law the required recovery equipment and certified techs achive just that, reduces emissions.

Using anything other than r12 in r12 systems, anything other than a full and "proper" conversion to 134a, and anything other than r134a in r134a system is foolish to say the least. These nasty alternatives, including SNAP approved crap, have done nothing but run up the cost of real a/c service and destroyed many a/c systems and equipment. Same thing goes for sealants... There are no substitutes for doing things right the first time!

You can get away with some of these other approved refrigerants for a period but who's going to recover them or work on them in the future without added cost? Until the auto manufactures make a change it's best not to commit ones vehicle to a possible dead end refrigerant that no one has or will have service equipment for.

Thanks, I won't mess with it then. :)

LS

All this came about thanks to the dupont co. and their bullshit, who gives a dam about the ozone anyway? I sure don't. All the crap they blast into space does more harm than a few auto a/c units on r-12.