Most Big Suv/Truck owners deserve what they're they're paying at the gas pump

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Consider too, that stupid laws sometimes get in the way fuel efficient engines. In California, the polution of a gasoline powered vehicle is measured by the amount of particulates, CO2 and NOX per mile, yet diesel engine powered vehicles are measured by those same quantaties per gallon of diesel burned. There is no way a small, efficient, diesel powered vehicle will be approved by the California Air Resources Board (CARB), despite the fact that it may produce less polution per mile as compared to the same vehicle powered by gasoline.
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If you had followed the thread, you'd know that the first paragraph in my post "was" the quoted material. I have no idea why it wasn't identified as such.
Dave
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Don't forget that crude oil is also refined to make durable goods made with "petrochemicals" (aka plastics - a very large catagory), without which, our modern society wouldn't be possible. Could you build a computer, microwave oven, or reclining chair, without the use of petrochemicals? Sure, but they would be a lot more expensive and consume a heck of a lot more power (even the recliner would require more power to build without plastics). Could you build a car which carries two people and gets 50 MPG without petrochemicals? Probably, but it wouldn't meet today's safety standards.
With time, we can replace petroleum as an energy source, but I don't think we can replace it as an ingredient in all the things we use on a daily basis.

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And then think of "The Graduate": "plastics"!
Cathy

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On Wed, 11 Jun 2008 23:21:11 -0400, Cathy F. wrote:

Plastics can be easily synthesized. Live anywhere near Selkirk or Waterford?
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Hachiroku ハチロク wrote:

What would be the raw ingredients?
Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')
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On Thu, 12 Jun 2008 06:17:18 -0400, Bill Putney wrote:

Well, I was a tech support guy helping people with their computers. All that chemical stuff throws me, and GE probably has some patents they wouldn't want divulged...if I knew anything.
All I really know for sure is that in order to make Lexan, you need fosgene gas, and they put it smack in the middle of the narrow end of Tornado Alley...
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Cathy F. wrote:

Koo Koo Katchu...
Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')
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;-)
"Mrs. Robinson" was originally "Mrs. Roosevelt" (as in Eleanor) - the song had already been started, but was changed in mid-writing for the movie.
Cathy
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Look at the Crash Test Ratings for a Camry vs any SUV dude. How many SUVs have a 10% or less chance of a rollover in a crash? http://www.safercar.gov/portal/site/safercar/menuitem.db847bd57e3dc1f885dfc38c35a67789/?vgnextoid=c95df2905bf54110VgnVCM1000002fd17898RCRD
http://www.iihs.org/ratings/rating.aspx?id=653
http://www.iihs.org/ratings/rating.aspx?id=686
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Sal, get a real world clue. If your Camry has a head-on with my Yukon, I'm glad I'm driving the Yukon. Regards, JR Apologies for cross posting this crap to the truck groups.
wrote:

Look at the Crash Test Ratings for a Camry vs any SUV dude. How many SUVs have a 10% or less chance of a rollover in a crash? http://www.safercar.gov/portal/site/safercar/menuitem.db847bd57e3dc1f885dfc38c35a67789/?vgnextoid 5df2905bf54110VgnVCM1000002fd17898RCRD
http://www.iihs.org/ratings/rating.aspx?ide3
http://www.iihs.org/ratings/rating.aspx?idh6
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True, but rollover accidents are among the most dangerous, according to people who actually know these things (NY State Police, for instance).
wrote:

http://www.safercar.gov/portal/site/safercar/menuitem.db847bd57e3dc1f885dfc38c35a67789/?vgnextoid 5df2905bf54110VgnVCM1000002fd17898RCRD
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Yukon could roll over possibly causing paralysis or death.
Yukons also have an EXTREMELY HIGH death rate of 92 per million registered vehicle years. Even small cars like the Mini Cooper and Honda Civic are FAR safer than a Yukon. What SUV owners don't understand is it's NOT important how your vehicle does in a crash, it's important how the driver/passengers do in a crash. A Safe Car like a Honda Accord or Volvo S80 may be totaled in a crash, but the driver may walk away without a scratch. A Yukon or Excursion may only have moderate damage in a crash, but the driver/ passengers may have life threatening injuries. The Ford Excursion has an EXTREMELY high 115 deaths per million registered vehicle years. TINY cars such as the Toyota Echo, Volkswagen Golf, Saturn Ion, Nissan Sentra, Volkswagen Jetta, Honda Civic, Toyota Corolla, Volvo S40, Kia Spectra, and Hyundai Elantra are FAR FAR safer than an Excursion. All those cars except the Kia Spectra and Hyundai Elantra are FAR FAR safer than a Yukon. So much for stupid theories that Big SUVs are safer, REAL WORLD ACCIDENTS DISPROVE stupid theories from SUV owners. http://www.iihs.org/sr/pdfs/sr4204.pdf
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wrote:

Yukon could roll over possibly causing paralysis or death.
Yukons also have an EXTREMELY HIGH death rate of 92 per million registered vehicle years. Even small cars like the Mini Cooper and Honda Civic are FAR safer than a Yukon. What SUV owners don't understand is it's NOT important how your vehicle does in a crash, it's important how the driver/passengers do in a crash. A Safe Car like a Honda Accord or Volvo S80 may be totaled in a crash, but the driver may walk away without a scratch. A Yukon or Excursion may only have moderate damage in a crash, but the driver/ passengers may have life threatening injuries. The Ford Excursion has an EXTREMELY high 115 deaths per million registered vehicle years. TINY cars such as the Toyota Echo, Volkswagen Golf, Saturn Ion, Nissan Sentra, Volkswagen Jetta, Honda Civic, Toyota Corolla, Volvo S40, Kia Spectra, and Hyundai Elantra are FAR FAR safer than an Excursion. All those cars except the Kia Spectra and Hyundai Elantra are FAR FAR safer than a Yukon. So much for stupid theories that Big SUVs are safer, REAL WORLD ACCIDENTS DISPROVE stupid theories from SUV owners. http://www.iihs.org/sr/pdfs/sr4204.pdf
This is an interesting study. I wonder if you even read it. To quote from page 2. **** None of the 15 vehicles with the lowest driver death rates is a small model. In contrast, 11 of the 16 vehicles with the highest death rates are mini or small models, and none is large or very large.
Among all types and sizes of cars, the smallest 4-door models have the highest driver death rate at 148 per million registered vehicle years. Next highest among cars is 137 in mini 2-door models. Midsize (33) and very large (34) luxury cars have the lowest rates.
There are exceptions to the general rule that bigger is safer. For example, the driver death rate is higher in midsize sports cars (115 per million) than in mini (107) or small (71) ones.
Another exception is very large 4-wheeldrive SUVs. This group is mostly Ford Excursions, which have a driver death rate of 115 per million - higher than the death rates in large 4-wheel-drive SUVs and higher than in all but 4 of the midsize and small counterparts.
**** end of quote.
Another example is the comparison of the 10 cars you claim are safer than a Yukon. When one looks at the death rate in multiple vehicle accidents one will see that, in order from best to worst it is the GMC Yukon XL (with a very low rate of only 6 per million vehicle registered years), VW Jetta (30), VW Golf (31), Saturn Ion (38), GMC Yukon (43), Nissan Sentra and Toyota Carolla (both 46), Honda Civic (47), Toyota Echo (53), Volvo S40 (62) and the Hyundai Elantra and Hyundai Spectra (both at 64).
When one includes the single vehicle accidents and single vehicle rollover accidents, then the statistics support your claim. I submit that while some single vehicle accidents (including rollovers) may be caused by unexpected road conditions like a dog running into traffic, or a rock falling off a truck, most are the result of driver error - either driving too fast for road conditions, or inattention. Examination of the statistics suggests to me big SUVs are indeed safer than small cars provided the driver is aware of the limitations of the big SUV and adjusts accordingly.
Finally, this study only looked at accidents in which the driver was killed. It did not include accidents in which the driver suffered a life threatening injury, but received medical attention in a timely fashion, received severe, moderate, or minor injuries, or suffered no injuries what-so-ever. Furthermore, it does not examine what happens when 2 similar or dissimilar vehicles collide. For instance when 2 Mini Coopers, 2 Ford Excursions, or a Mini Cooper and a Ford Excursion collide.
Your conclusion that "All those cars except the Kia Spectra and Hyundai Elantra are FAR FAR safer than a Yukon." just does not pan out given a true examination of the statistics and the narrow scope of this study.
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Try comparing death per 100,000 passenger miles and get back to us LOL
wrote:

Yukon could roll over possibly causing paralysis or death.
Yukons also have an EXTREMELY HIGH death rate of 92 per million registered vehicle years. Even small cars like the Mini Cooper and Honda Civic are FAR safer than a Yukon. What SUV owners don't understand is it's NOT important how your vehicle does in a crash, it's important how the driver/passengers do in a crash. A Safe Car like a Honda Accord or Volvo S80 may be totaled in a crash, but the driver may walk away without a scratch. A Yukon or Excursion may only have moderate damage in a crash, but the driver/ passengers may have life threatening injuries. The Ford Excursion has an EXTREMELY high 115 deaths per million registered vehicle years. TINY cars such as the Toyota Echo, Volkswagen Golf, Saturn Ion, Nissan Sentra, Volkswagen Jetta, Honda Civic, Toyota Corolla, Volvo S40, Kia Spectra, and Hyundai Elantra are FAR FAR safer than an Excursion. All those cars except the Kia Spectra and Hyundai Elantra are FAR FAR safer than a Yukon. So much for stupid theories that Big SUVs are safer, REAL WORLD ACCIDENTS DISPROVE stupid theories from SUV owners. http://www.iihs.org/sr/pdfs/sr4204.pdf
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wrote:

How about you post your stats & source to back up your conjecture.
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Read the study Sal posted. A quote from page 2 reads as follows:
*** start of quote None of the 15 vehicles with the lowest driver death rates is a small model. In contrast, 11 of the 16 vehicles with the highest death rates are mini or small models, and none is large or very large.
Among all types and sizes of cars, the smallest 4-door models have the highest driver death rate at 148 per million registered vehicle years. Next highest among cars is 137 in mini 2-door models. Midsize (33) and very large (34) luxury cars have the lowest rates.
There are exceptions to the general rule that bigger is safer. For example, the driver death rate is higher in midsize sports cars (115 per million) than in mini (107) or small (71) ones.
Another exception is very large 4-wheeldrive SUVs. This group is mostly Ford Excursions, which have a driver death rate of 115 per million - higher than the death rates in large 4-wheel-drive SUVs and higher than in all but 4 of the midsize and small counterparts.
*** end of quote.
It is a limited statistical study, which only evaluates collisions in which the driver of a particular make and model of a vehicle died.

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So Midsize Luxury cars had a lower death rate than large luxury cars, or ANY OTHER TYPES OF VEHICLES in the report. It just goes to show you that you get to a point where the accident avoidance capabilities(handling, braking, rollover resistence, etc are more important than size). The Infinity G35 was safer than any SUV made in the HISTORY OF THE KNOWN UNIVERSE. It just goes to show you that Midsize Luxury cars are the safest size vehicles out there. It's just that midsize luxury cars have stuff like side impact and curtain airbags, vehicle stability control, tire pressure monitoring, A pillar, B pillar, C pillar, and door reinforcement, 4 Channel ABS, Dynamic Headrests, etc standard, while moderately priced midsized cars either have those features as options, or don't offer them at all.
The average death rate of a Midsize Luxury car was 33 DPMRVY, Very Large four wheel drive SUVs, 76, Very Large four wheel drive pickups 89. The SUVs are safer than cars MYTH is the BIGGEST LIE sinice IRAQ had WMDs in the 21st century, IRAQ was behind 9/11, and that the Iraq war will make the world a safer more stable place.
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wrote:

So Midsize Luxury cars had a lower death rate than large luxury cars, or ANY OTHER TYPES OF VEHICLES in the report. It just goes to show you that you get to a point where the accident avoidance capabilities(handling, braking, rollover resistence, etc are more important than size). The Infinity G35 was safer than any SUV made in the HISTORY OF THE KNOWN UNIVERSE. It just goes to show you that Midsize Luxury cars are the safest size vehicles out there. It's just that midsize luxury cars have stuff like side impact and curtain airbags, vehicle stability control, tire pressure monitoring, A pillar, B pillar, C pillar, and door reinforcement, 4 Channel ABS, Dynamic Headrests, etc standard, while moderately priced midsized cars either have those features as options, or don't offer them at all.
****start of rant*** The average death rate of a Midsize Luxury car was 33 DPMRVY, Very Large four wheel drive SUVs, 76, Very Large four wheel drive pickups 89. The SUVs are safer than cars MYTH is the BIGGEST LIE sinice IRAQ had WMDs in the 21st century, IRAQ was behind 9/11, and that the Iraq war will make the world a safer more stable place. ****end of rant****
Rather than reply to what I posted in this tread at 5:29 PDT on 6/14/08 you decide to go off your own topic and rant about Irag. Your rant reveals much.
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Sal turned on the Etch-A-Sketch and wrote:

Dude, I don't know what your beef with midsize SUV's is. I have an Avalanche midsize and find it very safe.
Keep in mind - those people who may drive larger SUV's also take them in places they shouldn't.
I've been driving a truck/suv for 17 out of my 21 years driving. I know they may rollover more than a car and therefore I don't take corners like a car.
I know that my 6,000 lb Avalanche doesn't stop as fast as a sub-compact Camry so I stay back farther.
It is simple common sense.
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