Off Topic and VERY moving!!!



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Shades,
I don't think I have your email address anymore. Drop me a line at snipped-for-privacy@earthlink.net when you get a chance.
Snowman

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Yeah Jebus will solve everything.
What utter bullshit. The root cause of the Columbine incident was piss-poor parenting, NOT anything having to do with any religious sect.

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There wasn't any reference to a religious sect! It is referring to the worlds path away from God!
| > >>Columbine update | <religious psycho-babble snipped> | |
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I hear what you're saying, but I still think they are over-simplifying the issue.
Sorry, there's times to put things to fate or higher power, and there's times to realize the problem and take active measures to correct it.
Parents need to start parenting. Simple enough.
<yes, I AM a parent>
My mention of the phrase "religious sect" was to cover all bases-- since as you observed, no particular sect is mentioned.
- and besides-- WHICH God is it that we're missing? <student of the world's spiritualities here, you see>

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By the way, my comment to your response was not intended as a slam against you, burntkat, so I hope it doesn't get taken as one. There is so much desensitizing in the media that society has lost it's foundation for right and wrong. The standards have been tossed aside, to where anyone can judge right and wrong according to their own selves.
Shades, good article, in my opinion.
Snowman

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I don't know Jebus.
Your comment shows, however, how unaware you are of what is going on around you.
Snowman

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No- my comment shows how narrow-minded the Christian majority is of other viewpoints.
Put simply: you dismiss my comments out of hand, since I'm not a "true believer" of the supposed "one true way".
- I don't dismiss your viewpoint- merely explained the REAL issue at hand here. Praying to some mystical invisible man upstairs isn't going to fix what could have been fixed by parents doing their job. Namely, the parents of the two fuckwits who perpetrated the incident.
No amount of praying is going to substitute for guiding and shaping young people.
After all-- to borrow a paraphrasd quote from your own Bible: "God helps those who help themselves". Note the subtext: he's NOT going to help you if you sit around waiting for him to do all the work.
"Snowman" <somethingorotherdotcom> wrote in message

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Sorry BK, but that quote does not appear in the bible. However "spare the rod and spoil the child" certainly is ;)
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whoops... ...feathers ruffled, so the point got missed.
My friend, I will take a stand, though. DO NOT discount the power of prayer. Prayer isn't about "me" and most folks don't understand this. I am a living testimony that there is more power in prayer, though, than you may ever know. January 3rd, I fell from a gooseneck trailer, spent the next few days in ICU, had exploratory surgery on the 6th and lost a kidney. I was home on the 9th after being told I'd be there at least a week afterward. I was healing faster than they thought I could. I was told I may be able to think about working in 6-8 weeks. On the 20th, I was back to work. That's this January 2004. This weekend, I washed both my trucks because I COULD. There were more people praying for me across this old planet than I can think and it shows. Prayer is much more than surface deep and it takes study and diligence to understand it's significance.
My point is that if you want a religious debate, then go jack up someone that's religious. I'm not into religion because religion sucks. Religious people are the ones causing most of the trouble in the world. In fact, if you want to get right down to it, the religious people are the ones that exclaimed "crucify Him."
Now, if you want to talk about a relationship where you can walk right up and lay your burdens at His feet, be forgiven (not perfect, just forgiven) then drop me a line. I'll talk with you about a life that is so full that you will never know what happened to you. I was once where you are and I understand, totally, what you are saying and respect it. Do I say these things at risk of losing respect of those in this group? Sure, because most back away from someone that will say the "J" word. But at what cost? If you're willing to talk about it, then we'll put it on the table. No one's gonna do anything but give you a choice.
Man, this is WAY off topic. Good stuff, though.
Snowman

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Again- don't get me wrong, I understand where you're coming from. However, the immediate solution to the problem is proper parenting.
Perhaps one should pray for these idiots having children to start parenting insted of just letting the children run their own lives? ;)
You and I agree about 98% here, you just don't understand ;)
"Snowman" <somethingorotherdotcom> wrote in message

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Can't you people take this discussion, argument, opinions to one of the other 5,000 religious, parenting, etc.. whatever newsgroups out there?? Really now, this is an automotive newsgroup, otherwise you'll get others out here wanting to discuss the finer points of Janet Jackson's wardrobe choices also... Man!
On Mon, 2 Feb 2004 09:42:02 -0500, "Snowman" <somethingorotherdotcom> wrote:

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At the head of this, it said "Off Topic." Shades did right in doing so. Occasionally, it's good to get on other routes with folks who have common interests, though. We're all adults, here and can handle ourselves fine. We're having a good discussion, here. If it says off topic, then bypass it if you choose :-)
Snowman

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WHEW!!! I wasn't going to respond to this but I had to put my two cents in. I've been an athiest, an agnostic and a christian and I can tell you the Christian part actually works. I base my opinion on two things. The first is personal experience. I was lying in a burn unit years ago with little chance of survival and I had what one would call a "religious expeience" but failed to recognize it until almost 23 years later - it was significant. I can tell you that after this happened, my condition improved significantly very quickly.
The second was when I did research and discovered that people that used prayer or were prayed for by others (even without their knowledge) faired better and healed faster than those who did not pray or were not prayed for. That being said, I shuld mention that I'm not a religious zealot and I have a different view of some of the events mentioned in the bible than most people. Nuf said. Rich B
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I made this post because there are many out there that feel as I do. I do not fault others for their beliefs. Most haven't been given a choice. I was raised a Christian, rejected it whole heartedly in my early teen years(and that is an understatement), and only recently(past 2+ yrs) have found my way back to the 'path'! I have entertained many religions, beliefs, what-have-you in my 34 years of life. I didn't go to God, he came to me and pulled me from the depths that threatened to drown me. I AM a believer in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit! I am more than willing to listen openly and honestly to your testimony against my beliefs or for other beliefs, but only if you will return the same respect and listen to my testimony! I am not perfect, never claimed to be! I am not always right, not even usually right! I do not have all the answers, actually hundreds of times more questions than answers! I stumble and fall far more times than I stand tall, though that ratio is leaning more towards standing tall! My mistakes are many, as are my fears, worries, etc, etc... What I am trying to say is to fight human nature, DO NOT fear what you don't understand! DO NOT try to destroy what you don't understand! The 'you' in those two lines was not in any way directed to and one person or group of people!
YES, Parenting needs to be removed from the courts control and placed back into the hands of the Parent. BUT, Parenting is NOT television! Parenting is NOT beating your Child into submission! Parenting is NOT molding your Child into what you want them to be! Parenting is NOT giving your Child everything you never had! I see Parenting as a joint learning experience, for the Father, Mother, and Child! Your Child might be 3, 14, 21, or older, you can still learn as much from them as they can and have learned from you. There is no manual to be the perfect Parent, but there is Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth...B.I.B.L.E...
I might have opened some Minds and Hearts, I might have opened some cans of worms. Either way, most of you are thinking...that is always good!!!
| >>Columbine update | >> | >>Guess our national leaders didn't expect this, hmm? On Thursday, Darrell | >>Scott, the father of Rachel Scott, a victim of the Columbine High School | >>shootings in Littleton, Colorado, was invited to address the House | >>Judiciary Committee's subcommittee. What he said to our national leaders | >>during this special session of Congress was painfully truthful. They were | >>not prepared for what he was to say, nor was it received well. It needs to | >>be heard by every parent, every teacher, every politician, every | >>sociologist, every psychologist, and every so-called expert! | >> | >>These courageous words spoken by Darrell Scott are powerful, penetrating, | >>and deeply personal. There is no doubt that God sent this man as a voice | >>crying in the wilderness. The following is a portion of the transcript: | >> | >>"Since the dawn of creation there has been both good & evil in the hearts | >>of men and women. We all contain the seeds of kindness or the seeds of | >>violence. The death of my wonderful daughter, Rachel Joy Scott, and the | >>deaths of that heroic teacher, and the other eleven children who died must | >>not be in vain. Their blood cries out for answers." | >> | >>"The first recorded act of violence was when Cain slew his brother Abel | >>out in the field. The villain was not the club he used. Neither was it the | >>NCA, the National Club Association. The true killer was Cain, and the | >>reason for the murder could only be found in Cain's heart." | >> | >>"In the days that followed the Columbine tragedy, I was amazed at how | >>quickly fingers began to be pointed at groups such as the NRA. I am not a | >>member of the NRA. I am not a hunter. I do not even own a gun. I am not | >>here to represent or defend the NRA - because I don't believe that they | >>are responsible for my daughter's death. Therefore I do not believe that | >>they need to be defended. If I believed they had anything to do with | >>Rachel's murder I would be their strongest opponent." | >> | >>"I am here today to declare that Columbine was not just a tragedy-it was a | >>spiritual event that should be forcing us to look at where the real blame | >>lies! Much of the blame lies here in this room. Much of the blame lies | >>behind the pointing fingers of the accusers themselves. | >> | >>"I wrote a poem just four nights ago that expresses my feelings best. This | >>was written way before I knew I would be speaking here today": | >> | >>Your laws ignore our deepest needs, | >>Your words are empty air. | >>You've stripped away our heritage, | >>You've outlawed simple prayer. | >>Now gunshots fill our classrooms, | >>And precious children die. | >>You seek for answers everywhere, | >>And ask the question "Why?" | >>You regulate restrictive laws, | >>Through legislative creed. | >>And yet you fail to understand, | >>That God is what we need! | >> | >>Men and women are three-part beings. We all consist of body, soul, and | >>spirit. When we refuse to acknowledge a third part of our make-up, we | >>create a void that allows evil, prejudice, and hatred to rush in and wreak | >>havoc. Spiritual presences were present within our educational systems for | >>most of our nation's history. Many of our major colleges began as | >>theological seminaries. This is a historical fact. | >> | >>What has happened to us as a nation? We have refused to honor God, and in | >>so doing, we open the doors to hatred and violence. And when something as | >>terrible as Columbine's tragedy occurs - politicians immediately look for | >>a scapegoat such as the NRA. They immediately seek to pass more | >>restrictive laws that contribute to erode away our personal and private | >>liberties. We do not need more restrictive laws. | >> | >>"Eric and Dylan would not have been stopped by metal detectors. No amount | >>of gun laws can stop someone who spends months planning this type of | >>massacre. The real villain lies within our own hearts. Political posturing | >>and restrictive legislation are not the answers. The young people of our | >>nation hold the key. There is a spiritual awakening taking place that will | >>not be squelched! We do not need more religion. We do not need more gaudy | >>television evangelists spewing out verbal religious garbage. We do not | >>need more million dollar church buildings built while people with basic | >>needs are being ignored. We DO need a change of heart and a humble | >>acknowledgment that this nation was founded on the principle of simple | >>trust in God!" | >> | >>"As my son Craig lay under that table in the school library and saw his | >>two friends murdered before his very eyes-He did not hesitate to pray in | >>school. I defy any law or politician to deny him that right! I challenge | >>every young person in America, and around the world, to realize that on | >>April 20, 1999, at Columbine High School prayer was brought back to our | >>schools. Do not let the many prayers offered by those students be in vain. | >>Dare to move into the new millennium with a sacred disregard for | >>legislation that violates your God-given right to communicate with Him. To | >>those of you who would point your finger at the NRA - I give to you a | >>sincere challenge. Dare to examine your own heart before casting the first | >>stone! My daughter's death will not be in vain! The young people of this | >>country will not allow that to happen!" | >> | >> | >>Do what the media did not - - let the nation hear this man's speech. | >>Please send this out. | >> | | | | |
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"burntkat IS AT comcast.net" wrote

Organized religion doesn't have a monopoly on the type of behaviour you are describing. You rightly say "the human condition is the problem in the equation". The big problem is that organized religions claims are often so high, that the hypocrisy is very obvious. But really, religious or non-religious...the vast majority of us are very hypocritical.
What hypocrisy can't change is whether the message of a particular religion (which may be from "outside" the human condition) is true or not. The followers often are very poor examples of what was originally intended...but in Christianity, if you understand the theology of it....this is really to be expected and should hardly be considered abnormal.
> Why is it whenever you try to discuss things like this with "true believers"

I can tell you from personal experience....(my parents were missionaries, and I grew up with them overseas) that not all missionaries spread the "good news" in this way, with strings attached. Sure, there is lots of bad stuff happening, but again....it's usually "bad" people that carry out those bad acts....which...if you understand the theology and structure of a religion, can't really be reconciled with the intent of the religion.
I do happen to agree with you, prayer has its place, but some good honest parenting goes a lot further when bringing up your children. Both have their place, but the good parenting has got to be in place first.
Ian
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good points, Ian!
Snowman

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