92 Integra - Heater Blower stopped NOT resistor!

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Lots of stuff can go wrong. It's a brutal environment.

Ozone can carbonize dirty surfaces near the HV and create a conductive path into sensitive circuits. The coil's winding insulation can fail and overheat the coil. Excessive voltages caused by cracked wires, worn points, or a failed capacitor results avalanching in the power transistor, the semiconductor equivalent of an arc-over, and accelerated aging of the coil insulation. Avalanching slowly degrades the silicon crystal into a more passive form, like a resistor, that will overheat.

Transistors usually fail as a short circuit or a low resistance. If the fried transistor heats enough to melt a lead wire, the flyback power released from the coil can lead to a small explosion at the break.

Typical ignition systems are flyback types. Inductors act as constant current devices. Applying 12V causes current flow to gradually increase. Break the current rapidly and voltage shoots in the opposite direction in an attempt to maintain the current flow. That's a few hundred volts on the primary and tens of thousands on the secondary. Flyback transformers have a problem with imperfect magnetic coupling between the two coils. Some of the power spikes back into the primary even if the secondary discharges into a spark plug. It's the capacitor's job to dampen the primary's voltage so it doesn't arc over the switch/transistor or rise faster than the switch/transistor can turn off. If the secondary doesn't discharge into a spark plug, the flyback voltage will rise until something gives way. Hopefully its a protective avalanche diode or spark gap.

Reply to
Kevin McMurtrie
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Honda shows MOSFETs in their ignition schematics of the Civic but doesn't show what is used in the Accord.

MOSFETs are kind of tricky to use for flyback circuits. There's a strong capacitive coupling between the gate and the source. Several amps coming off the gate from that capacitive coupling isn't unusual. It can lead to nasty RF ringing or destruction of the driver. The solution is of course to use pair of power MOSFETs to drive the HV MOSFET. The driver is complex but it fits on a chip.

Bipolar transistors have less capacitive coupling but they need lots of holding current. The driver is trivial but it needs power resistors that run too hot to be on a chip.

MOSFETs can't handle much current when they're designed for high voltages. A small 30V MOSFET can handle 50A to 150A but a small 500V MOSFET handles 4 to 8 amps. Automotive ignition coils is pretty much their limit. Larger HV power supplies use bipolar transistors or IGBTs.

An IGBT has impressive current and voltage abilities but one might be too slow for an ignition coil. The IMA, A/C, and other 144V 3-phase motors are driven by IGBTs the Hybrid Accord.

Reply to
Kevin McMurtrie

Thanks for your fast responses!

----- Original Message ----- From: "TeGGeR®" Newsgroups: alt.autos.acura Sent: Monday, May 02, 2005 10:55 PM Subject: Re: 1991 Integra Strange problem?

Yes they are aftermarket, they are not the orignal Honda wires.

LOL :-)

Here is what I did orginally I pulled out each wire out one at a time and externally installed a spark plug and grounded the plug, I did not see any spark.

Opened the cap then I attached a wire from the secondary output to ground (about 1/8") and I saw a spark. I didn't see a nice fat loud spark :-(

No, I think the parts are orignal Honda parts.

After I had seening there was a spark coming out from the secondary winding I installed new rotor, I thought I might have solved the problem. NO luck :-(

Yes could be?

When he changed his wires he should have replaced the rotor and distributor cap with Honda parts. I am still wondering if the new after market wires he installed may have caused the problem in the first place. Could be the resistance are not the same as Honda wires? Strange thing is the rotor had fuse link incorporated in it from the centre electro to the outer brass contact that was open circuited.

Yes sounds like a good plan, just what I was thinking too. THANKS AGAIN!

Reply to
J Poy

Thanks Mike!

I am not sure about the coil as well it could be some of the secondary is shorted out? If some of the turns are shorted like this, it could result in lower output voltage. I would like to put a scope with a High voltage probe on output to check the actual pulse height and pulse width. Anyone know if there is picture of what the output should look like on a scope?

BTW. My son left for vacation down in Cuba just when his car stop working should be back this Sat. it would be nice if I could help him.

Reply to
J Poy

I agree. Mounting of heavy components by solder is a dubious practice, and the vibration makes fatigue an "if, not when" proposition.

When I worked in avionics, we would often see a popular transponder with fuse failure. We replaced the fuse every time and only once saw a unit come back. The fuse was a slo-blo glass fuse, and we could see the solder attachment at the end had crumbled, leaving rough edges, instead of the melted ends of blown fuses. We never saw it in twin engine planes, only singles.

Mike

Reply to
Michael Pardee

This brings up one mystery - how do electronic ignitions get away with no capacitor or equivalent energy shunt? Points needed a capacitor to give the contacts time to get a little air between them before the voltage peaked, so a capacitor isn't needed (strictly speaking) with an igniter. But if the HT wires open up, the energy has to go *somewhere*. I know in Integras it often goes into the coil with bad results, but many systems aren't damaged when the HT lead is open.

Mike

Reply to
Michael Pardee

Power MOSFETs also get around the thermal runaway problem. My hunch is they are some sort of MOS devices.

Ditto - I barely know they exist!

Mike

Reply to
Michael Pardee

practice, and

When my ignitor failed, I didn't take it apart but perhaps should have so see what's inside.

It could be that they wirebonded the dies and put thermally conductive gel around it all -- the same way they make hockey puck Solid State Relays, for instance. They make enough of these ignitors to justify the one time charges and would make them pretty cheap in quantity. Not sure if they actually did this, but mechanically and electrically it is a superior method of making a very reliable product.

Reply to
Remco

Tegger, Nice website with lots of good information. FAQ

One thing I read in the FAQ is to turn the motor manually and not via the ignition this will prevent break down of the secondary winding.

My question is how to actually physically turn it where do you do that? Basically where do I grab on and turn the motor?

Reply to
J Poy

Do you have mpg numbers before and after 30k? Slightly sticking brakes should have made a difference.

Reply to
S Narayan

Wow, what a response!

With the knowledge amply herein exhibited, maybe this group ought to be called rec.autos.makers.honda.electronics! I'm impressed. This is the sort of thing that makes a good FAQ possible. Thank you.

I'm responding in this particular message only because my original post has been pushed off the stack by my news provider.

With the wealth or information in everybody's responses, I've saved them all and will have to review them. I will post a draft once I figure I understand all this.

For a picture of the insides of an igniter, see here:

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'll have to scroll up a bit) For more pics:
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More questions:

1) Can anyone tell from the foregoing pics what kind of transistor is in the igniter pictured? 2) What's this thing about the attachment of a heat sink by "wires"? I must be dense or something, because I thought heat sinks were firmly fastened by screws or solder blobs. 3) Can somebody explain a "flyback circuit" in terms a layman can understand?
Reply to
TeGGeR®

"J Poy" wrote in news:DqQde.4986$ snipped-for-privacy@news20.bellglobal.com:

1) Turn the steering wheel fully to the left 2) Peek inside the LEFT FRONT wheel well immediately ahead of the wheel, right next to the aperture where the driveshaft comes out 3) There is a rubber plug about 1.5" in diameter set into the plastic fender liner 4) Pull that plug out, exposing the (in)famous crankshaft bolt, deep inside the hole 5) You can now get a 19mm socket and about (12" worth of extensions) onto the bolt 6) Turn COUNTER-clockwise until the engine is rotated the way you want

The rotation will not be smooth, but will get very difficult to turn as each cylinder moves up its compression stroke. It will get suddenly easier as the exhaust valve opens.

Do not turn CLOCKwise except for final alignment, such as when adjusting valves.

Reply to
TeGGeR®

Hi,

I had a question on air filter change on a 95 Acura Integra LS. (non VTEC). There is a coiled clip that hold the air intake hose tight over the airfilter. Do I need to unhook this to change the air filter? And will it expand and lose its tension if I unhook and try to rehook? Or do I leave it on and just pull out the air filter out of the air intake hose and put the new one in?

Thanks, Venugopal

Reply to
balasubv

"TeGGeR®" wrote in news:Xns964BD70A3C96tegger@207.14.113.17:

I looked at this pix and brightened it up with IrfanView,and it appears that the transistor has a part number that could be researched IF one could read all the marking,which I couldn't.It starts with BU.Get me the whole PN,and maybe I can find what it is and it's specs.Knowing the manufacturer maker on it would help greatly,too.

I could not read the number on the transistor(xstr). It seems to be a standard BU-type semi.It might be a combo MOSFET/bipolar with a internal protection diode,like what's used in a TV's high voltage flyback,or just a plain bipolar PNP xstr.

Dunno.Japanese power supplies commonly use metal clips to hold a power semi to the heatsink;quicker and cheaper.

"flyback" is when a coil is energized,a magnetic field is built up,and when the current is quickly removed,the field rapidly collapses and induces a REVERSE current from the original charging current.The coil's magnetic field is an energy storage device.This is how a high voltage spike is generated. This also holds for transformers.It's how many PC power supplies work,too.

Ignition "dwell" time (for the older points-type ignitions) is the length of time the points stay closed to charge up the ignition coil,thus determining how much spark energy is generated with the flyback pulse.Modern electronic systems can control this much better,no points bounce,either.

Reply to
Jim Yanik

Jim Yanik wrote in news:Xns964BDD6B382AAjyanikkuanet@129.250.170.86:

Then a Kettering system is a flyback system, and this is why it needs a condenser. Right?

Reply to
TeGGeR®

Wow, load of tech infos on igniters here! Sorry, I'm no techie to contribute much info but I'd like your help in troubleshooting a possible igniter problem.

What happens if the igniter fails while cruising at highway speed?

My 93 Integra suddently failed to start last weekend. So I followed an advice to pull out and reinsert the fuel pump fuse, which I did and oddly it restarted the engine. However, after driving for about 10 miles at highway speed, the engine shut-off with a thump noise/lurch. The local Acura Dealer tells me that the igniter failed and it'll cost $320 to replace it. Sounds like a plausible diagnosis?

Any feedback would be appreciated.

Reply to
Genba

Wow, load of tech infos on igniters here! Sorry, I'm no techie to contribute much info but I'd like your help in troubleshooting a possible igniter problem.

What happens if the igniter fails while cruising at highway speed?

My 93 Integra suddently failed to start last weekend. So I followed an advice to pull out and reinsert the fuel pump fuse, which I did and oddly it restarted the engine. However, after driving for about 10 miles at highway speed, the engine shut-off with a thump noise/lurch. The local Acura Dealer tells me that the igniter failed and it'll cost $320 to replace it. Sounds like a plausible diagnosis?

Any feedback would be appreciated.

Reply to
Genba

"TeGGeR®" wrote in news:Xns964BE47546B2Etegger@207.14.113.17:

Yes,it protects the points(interrrupter contacts) from arcing and burning out prematurely.

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Reply to
Jim Yanik

Reply to
Carl Price

True, but in this application the transistor (FET or BJT) is always either off or in saturation, so thermal runaway isn't an issue.

Reply to
Randolph

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