It's official. Manual transmissions are making a comeback.

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I would have purchased a pure electric car, except that it didn't have enough range. If the Electric-Gas hybrid had an electric-only range of 30-40 miles, that would suffice for most around town runs, but the gas would always be available for the cross country jaunts.
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Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley (Lake County) CA USA 38.8,-122.5
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Definitely. This will probably be an area where hybridization appears last - towing packages and trucks of all sorts. The IMA approach is still attractive (in a technical sense) in that it can improve passing ability and the ability to gain speed after a stop, but I think it will be a long time before the economics of that make sense. Turbocharging is better for towing and trucks, and even that still isn't universal yet.
And as to the topic, I've driven manual and AT rental trucks up grades and I despise autos for that sort of thing. They also bite the big one off road, especially on slippery snow/mud roads. Throttle/slippage is much easier to control with a manual.
Mike
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wrote:

I doubt that IMA can return over 30% in fuel consumption. I recall, on Edmund's Hybrid Forum, one of the Insight driver was operating without IMA. He was still getting over 50mpg, without any electrical assist. The IMA might return over 30% in optimum condition, but from normal driving, It's probably more like 15%.
I think Honda's Hybrid system could be improved if the battary capacy was improved and the car was allowed to charge-up overnight (or the IMA can be user programmed to expect overnight charging). In this case the 30% improvement could become a norm.
Honda's system does seem more cost effective when compared to more complicated and expenive system. I'm looking forward to seeing the system on more low priced entry level cars.
Hopefully, Honda will bring back the Insight (which is in it's last year of production), but with a go-fast suspension system and a better IMA mated to the 1.3L.
Pars

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snipped-for-privacy@nospam.com (Dave) wrote:

But the Accord Hybrid is rather different. As far as I can tell, the electric motor is to keep the engine running smoothly when it's switching in and out of gas saving modes. The power meter shows little activity and the 15 HP electric motor is tiny compared to the 240 HP gas motor.

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Kevin McMurtrie wrote:

thats kinda cool. i wonder if they can use that in place of balance shafts?
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It's probably technically possible but I bet it would eat a lot of power.
How much does the balancer weigh? The 05 Accord Hybrid engine seems to rev up slowly compared to my simple old 97 Civic HX. It's the one thing that disappoints me a little - major downshift lag when stepping on the gas. It makes me miss a 5 speed manual.
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I don't think it would affect the balancer at all. On the other hand, there wouldn't be a flywheel, since the IMA is effectively the flywheel. That would help smoothness at idle.
Engine RPM when blipping the throttle could be part "drive by wire". There's a lot of computerized engine control involved. The Civic still has a throttle cable. I don't know about the Accord. The Ford Escape does not. In the Ford, blipping the throttle does absolutley nothing unless you go beyond about 2/3 throttle, at which point the RPM climbs rather slowly, maybe 2 seconds to 3000 RPM.
It could also be the heavy flywheel affect of the IMA.
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Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley (Lake County) CA USA 38.8,-122.5
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True, but note that the vast majority of the time (or at least on the wimpy EPA certification cycles!) very little of that 240 hp is actually used. To be sure, the Accord is a lot heavier and less aerodynamic than the Insight. So it would benefit from a bigger battery. But (as you no doubt know) the proportion of battery to ICE size doesn't need stay the same as ICE power goes ballistic.
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It seems to be exactly the same as the Civic, almost the same as the original Insight, and completely different from the Prius and Escape.
The point about the motor being tiny is true, though. The benefit from idle-stop is still there, as is the cleanliness of the engine at initial takeoff, where the ICE wouldn't normally be very efficient. The Accord IMA produces 12% more hp than the Civic.
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Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley (Lake County) CA USA 38.8,-122.5


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Kevin McMurtrie wrote:

Say again? A quick look at the Yahoo Autos tells me that the 2005 Civic Hydrid is available with a 5-speed manual transmission. The same goes for the Insight.
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which is called million different names such as autostick, tiptronic, easytronic, multimod manual, activeselect or whatever... and all range of cars started to have this kind of transmission.. from cheap econobox such as Toyota Yaris 1.0 liter to expensive cars like MB and BMW. I just bought a 1.2 liter Opel Corsa with Easytronic transmission. It has 5 forward gears and you can shift the gears manualy if you want and it gets considerably better gas mielage compared to the same car with stick shift (6.8 liters / 100 kms in city versus 7.8 liters / 100 kms in city driving).
Ahmet
Turkey
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of course, i didn't mean that these cars have 2 transmissions...just one with with the capabilities of both both manual and auto transmission...
ahmet
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Yes, I wonder how they (NHTSA) are defining "manual". Some of the ones you listed are typical torque converter ("slushboxes") where they just add a manual shifting mode. Others have actual manual trannies, just with an electronic clutch, ex: BMW's SMG. I believe your "Easytronic" is the latter?
I wonder how many folk who buy the tiptronic type actually manually shift. When I've driven those, I get tired of the novelty in the first drive and just end out driving them like every other automatic.
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wrote:

I think you are correct.. Opel calls it a clutchless automatic or semi automatic. When it shifts the gear, it is not as smooth as normal automatics..You definitely feel it. a slight pause and the shift. if you take your foot off of the gas pedal slightly, it shifts easier or less noticeably. It also moves backward when you are on a very slight incline and your foot is not on the brake just like regular 5 speeds.

Well., same here too..first couple of times I stole the car from my wife, I shifted myself and got tired of it and quit...
ahmet
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My mind drifts back to earlier days....
Around 1970 Renault offered an unusual (okay, *everything* about Renault was unusual, at least in those days) automatic transmission for the R16. It was a solenoid shifted manual transmission with a powdered iron clutch. The clutch was an electromagnet with steel clutch plates inside and the space inbetween was packed with iron filings. When the magnet was energized the clutch engaged. (I don't know what did the shifting.) I hear their unique creation had reliability problems - I wonder why ;-)
The 70s sure were not the good old days of automotive technology!
Mike
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On Fri, 25 Mar 2005 12:00:04 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@nospam.com (Dave) wrote:

I would be surprised if these were classified as MTs. The stats actually specify % AT and I would bet that any transmission that had the capability to fully automatic would qualify. You have always been able to manually shift an AT if you like.

Probably a good thing too as you would probably wear it out if you started aggressively shifting it. The Problem is that Tiptronic et al. don't really give you the control of an MT in that you can't separate the engine from the drive train to allow rpm matching. Now if they would use the same system used in the F1 cars it might be a different story. But I think even they have a clutch pedal for standing starts.
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snipped-for-privacy@mindspring.com (Gordon McGrew) wrote:

Ah, but it is a fluidic separation between the two through the torque converter. So, what are you saying would wear out?
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I wish they'd put a MT in the 4 door accord V6.
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Using a pronoun @ the start of a paragraph / sentence, before the subject matter is introduced, indicates low IQ ; nobody will know what the pronoun represents, before the subject matter is introduced.
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Mike
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