Timing belt Time belt

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So what you're saying is that those engines that are non-interference are not efficient and have greater emmission problems?
I'm not an engineer, but designing for efficiency and emmissions must be more important that designing an engine that doesn't self destruct when the timing belt breaks. And if timing belts break as often as "motsco_" claims, there should be a lot of angry people switching to a non-interference auto manufacturer.
Sorry, but I find your statement hard to believe.

Cars have used chains for years. Even the new Hondas use chains.

A quality product that gets destroyed when the belt breaks....when they could have just used a chain?
Doesn't sound like quality, does it...?
So it's back to the bottom line, $greed$...
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On Dec 17 2007, 9:43 am, "James" <anonymous> wrote:

I just took the head off my 1991 Honda Civic and there they were nice groved pistons. I was told that Honda does not and have not made a non-interferince engine well BS i got one right here! My father also told me that he had replace a head gasket on a old CVCC and it was a non-interferince engine as well.
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I just took the head off my 1991 Honda Civic and there they were nice groved pistons. I was told that Honda does not and have not made a non-interferince engine well BS i got one right here! My father also told me that he had replace a head gasket on a old CVCC and it was a non-interferince engine as well.
Sounds to me like some of the so called Honda experts, aren't. Or they are lying.
Hmmm... Using scare tactics...???
Well, it worked on me. I finally did have mine replaced.
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snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:

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The grooves in the tops of the pistons (that look like the dents your valves would make) are not proof that you're looking at a non-interference engine.
They allow some of the valves to still be opening (or closing) while the piston is at TDC. Keep in mind there are three other strokes, not just the combustion one.
'Curly'
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Ok what else is there to a non-interference engine? If the valves cant hit how can they get bent or broke?
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C I have a 1987 Acura Integra my timing belt broke. I called every Honda "Mechanic" I could think of they all said get another car that ones trash and guess what they all had one for sale!! So I bought one 3 weeks later im changing a F@#$% head gasket. Yeah I agree with the guy that says its all GREED!!! So im just gonna replace the belt and water pump and finish driving that rusty p.o.s. into the ground!!!!!
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Here is a link to a photo of my 1991 Civic engine block. I would never assume that these groves were made by the valves hitting the pistons. http://www.flickr.com/photos/jjpylp/sets/72157603769870713 /
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snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:

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I didn't say they can't hit. I only said there's room for the valves to open or close early / late without hitting the top of the piston. This should convince you that the timing of the cams is of great importance. If your timing belt is even a couple teeth out of time, you'll be buying and installing some new hardware.
'Curly'
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So is this one (referring to the picture) a interference or non interference engine. I am confused no I thought that from (what I read earlier on the post) that the groves made it a non-interference engine? If the groves don't make it a non-interference engine what does?
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On Jan 21, 12:55 pm, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:

Not gonna reply 'Curly'? I guess your right James it is $$GREED$$!!
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snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:

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Here's a similar definition:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interference_engine
'Curly'
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Of course I am. :o) But first let me say that Honda builds a darn fine automobile. They are extremely reliable, and they have earned a reputation for consistent quality. But as long as making money is their primary goal (and we know it is), it is inevitable that there will be compromises. But there are some auto manufacturers whose primary goal is to milk the customer for as much of the green as they can. Especially by selling highly marked up replacement parts to replace their cheap original failed parts. And they sell them by the truckload because they engineer their vehicles to constantly require them. Now these companies are totally driven by greed. But they still sell their vehicles. Why? Because there are a vast number of patriots who always buy American products. But could American car companies build quality vehicles? Sure they could. But they don't. Why? Because using cheaper parts initially saves money, and means even larger profits down the road by selling replacement parts. One company that comes to mind is Chrysler corp. Man, this company is the worst in my opinion. FORD has become an acronym for many things of which most of us are familiar... Now there are those that may argue that it is the high cost of union labor that is forcing American car manufacturers to build self destructing automobiles. This certainly is believable. So for even more greed, factor in the UAW.
Now back to timing belts. My personal experience shows that 105K miles is a bit too soon for a Honda. But consider the $1000 it typically costs to replace a timing belt/water pump/etc. And that more than 93% of that goes in the dealer's pocket. Well, let's just say that I wouldn't be a bit surprised if the guys who write the maintenance schedules get kickbacks from the auto dealers. Either that or it's Honda's way of saying "thank you" to the dealer..? Some people probably just accept it and say "better safe than sorry. After all, it's only a thousand bucks..." Yeah right, only a thousand. Question is, did it have to be that way? Or did Honda save some $greenbacks$ by designing a car for assembly rather than serviceability...? So let the customer pay for the difficult servicing...I mean, why should Honda. Makes sense to me, if your Honda. ;o)
As for the interference type engine, if true, I'm not entirely sure of their motivations behind that one. But if I had to guess I'd say "It always been about money, and it always will..."
-James
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On Jan 24, 11:39 am, "James" <anonymous> wrote:

Don't get me wrong I love Hondas. I hate being lied to! Every Honda mechanic I talked to said scrap it not bring it in we can fix it. So I bought another Honda this time a civic from none other than a Honda mechanic! Well long story short within 3 weeks I was pulling the head to replace the head gasket. I was told that Hondas have no groves in the pistons for the valves to be out and the pistons to be up at the same time. Well I took the head off and wow groves in the pistons!
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On Jan 24, 3:06 pm, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:

Short answer - The "grooves" in the pistons would have to be 10 or more mm deeper to ensure avoiding the valves if they were stuck at full lift, as might happen when a timing belt broke.
If the "grooves" were deepened to provide enough clearance for rare emergencies like a busted timing belt, That would lower the compression, among other things.
Race engines pistons are notched to provide minimal 2 to 3 mm piston- to-valve clearance during normal operation. If the cam timing is advanced or retarded as is sometime done for fine tuning, that clearance can be used up. http://www.iskycams.com/votc.php
The piston is near the top of its stroke (TDC) for two different events. One is the end of the compression stroke, that is also the beginning of the power stroke, and the intake and exhaust valves are both closed long before and during that TDC. The other TDC is the end of the exhaust stroke (the exhaust valves are closing) and the beginning of the intake stroke (the intake valves are opening). At TDC None of the valves are anything near full lift, which happens about when the piston is at the middle of its stroke, 30 or more mm "down the hole."
Here is an image of a Porsche 911 engine showing how close the valves and pistons are at TDC.
http://www.pelicanparts.com/techarticles/911_valve_adjust/911_valve_adjust_pic3.jpg
Note The stock pistons are notched for valve clearance, but for running clearance, not to remove possible interference.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads2/mahleRSR1069134036.jpg
And, nothing against Porsche, but the 911 was introduced ~ 1966. In the 80s it was still going thru a few timing chain tensioner design revisions to make their cam chains more reliable. Other manufacturers went thru long development to make chains last more than 100 kmiles.
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Thank You I get it now. Well crap Just change the damn thing when the book tells you too right. I will from now on!!! Thanks too everybody that put in there 2 cents every bit helps!!!
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snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:

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I'm no expert on Honda engines. I think the definition of an interference engine is one that allows the valves and pistons to share the same 'space', but at different times. Break the belt and they share the space at the same time. I think some pre-'90's Honda engines are non-interference. I blew a TB on a Dog Caravan and didnt' wreck any valves (at least you couldn't tell the difference). It was _supposedly_ a Mitsubishi interference engine.
Tegger (and many others) know more about it . . .
'Curly'
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James wrote:

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Actually, they are made to last the life of the _engine_
Every month somebody tells us how the belt finally failed at _EXACTLY_ the same moment as the engine. There must be some strange metaphysical connection to the wording of the owner's manual.
Here's a link to the HONDA owner's manuals:
https://techinfo.honda.com/rjanisis/RJAAI001_OMANUAL.asp
'Curly'
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Our 98 Accord will turn over 300K miles probably before spring arrives in 08. I use Mobil One synthetic. I've run it in every car we've ever owned. Our last vehicle was a 92 Accord that we traded in for the 98, and it had 204K miles.
Typically speaking, what is the "life of the _engine_" in a Honda product? I've never run one into the ground, but if our finances don't improve, we may run our 98 into the ground...or until the engine quits and the timing belt mysteriously breaks. ;o)
Just curious, but what's the highest mileage anyone has ever put on a honda engine?
james
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"James" <anonymous> wrote in message wrote in message :

Probably well over a few million miles but not without major maintenance.
Hey James, I just took out the original Honda timing belt on the Integra GSR at 93K miles and it looks brand new, and couldn't tell the difference from the new replacement belt. Just amazing! Looks like it could go for another 500K miles. Manual says change at 95K miles and sooner if the car was driven hard. My friend, the mechanic, said he doesn't bother to change the belt until its around 150K miles. I don't have that kind of faith, so every 95K miles it is. If the timing belt breaks, my GSR might as well be totaled as the engine will self destruct - goodbye pistons, valves, etc. I hear from other Honda owners that their belt broke at a little over 95K miles.
BTW, wife's Volvo timing belt broke at 62K miles, manual said change every 60K miles. Fortunately the Volvo engine was non-interfering.
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If what you say (95K) is truly typical, then it's a miracle that I've got 275K (as of today) on the original belt. Assuming your mechanic (at 150K) is more realistic, then I still fall in the miracle category. Now that you've offered me some doubt, mine will probably break. ;o)
Though I find it interesting that there hasn't been more feedback on this issue. I was hoping too see more people with timing belt stories.
Maybe everyone's out doing their xmas shopping...
-james
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