audi and kaipola ski jump advertisiement - climbing an icy hill

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I saw this advertisement from Audi on their second records on driving up Kaipola ski jump in Finland. It was a rather impressive achievement and photos. I could not believe that a car can climb a hill with slope
of 80 degrees, even on a regular ground (not icy road). When I dig out more information about the Audi advertisement, I read more detail information on how the car actually climbed up the hill. I would like to find out comments from the readers about driving up an icy snow hill with very steep slopes. My immediate questions are: - Could you actually climb up a ski jump by the power of your car, from a stop, without slipping on an 80 degrees icy/snow slope?. In the Audi advertisement, they were using a winch in which the car could only goes up. There was a braking mechanism to prevent the car from slipping backward. - If the above answer is no, then how many degrees of slope can a regular or 4WD car climb a slippery/ice hill slope? What about a regular, dry, soil or rocky slope? - Is the wonder of such a climb a result of the high power car (big engine), the all wheel drive system, or the good quality gripping ice tires, or all of the above? - On what icy slope is a car can actually stand still on without sliding down? I thought that a relatively small slope (with no friction because of ice) that a car can stand up on icy slope more than say 15 to 20 degrees ( 1V to 3H to 1V to 4H). .... or is the figure even lower, say 10 degrees ... or less? - How many degrees slope that Land Rover brags about in their advertisement? Or a Hummer? I think they are on a regular, dry, rocky or soil ground, not snow or icy surface. - How good quality ice or snow tires can reduce the slippage when standing on a slope? Will car using these tires stand up at say 25 or 30 degrees? I don't think there is any car on any tires that can stand still at a 45 degrees slope (1H:1V) . Correct me if I am wrong. - If the Audi car shown in the ad does not have a winch, do you think it can climb that 80 degrees slope ? What happen it it accelerate first on flat surface until it achieve a very high speed? If it NOT on ice/snow slope, could a car (like an Audi AWD) climb an 80 degrees slope in a dry, rocky, rough surface? - I assume that contributing factors for climbing are: adequate engine power, all wheel drive or 4x4, good gripping tires, weight of the car, and a good driver. Are there any other governing factors?
Would like to hear some discussion. Thank you!
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snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com wrote:

37.5 degrees actually.
Graham
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Pooh Bear wrote:

I wonder if the AWD was really useful at that angle. RWD should have been enough.
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223rem wrote:

At this angle, in terrain (no snow or ice) you will need grip. Without AWD or 4WD you will be left with a spinning (rear) wheel. Kind regards, Erik-Jan.
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You really should study physics a little...
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Alan Baker
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Not 20 minutes after my last post, I saw the commercial itself!
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Alan Baker wrote:

Why? We are talking about an angle of 37.5 degrees here which can be done with most 4x4's with low range T-case. On tarmac you will even succeed without spinning wheels. Kind regards, Erik-Jan.
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Your missing the point. At 37.5 degrees, almost the entire weight of the vehicle will be on the rear wheels. Take a wheelbase of 8' for example and assume a 50-50 weight distribution. If the centre of mass is located at 8/2 * 80% = 3.2 feet, then the entire weight of the vehicle would be on the rear wheels on a 80% or 37.5 degree slope.
Hence the OP was suggesting that only RWD would be necessary.
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Alan Baker wrote:

My experience with a hill nearby, (about 25 to 30 degrees) grassland. Easy to climb with 4wd engaged, no spinning wheels. In 2wd mode the car won't move an inch, the rear wheels were spinning though (LSD). Kind regards, Erik-Jan.

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I seriously doubt that the hill is 25 to 30 degrees. Use an inclinometer and tell us the results...

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Alan Baker wrote:

the other one for the driving direction or rolling backwards if you like ;-( Here they are: http://www.fotograaf.com/trooper/image.htm Kind regards, Erik-Jan.
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And the round goes to Erik-Jan. Really Alan, I have climbed 45 degree slopes in my Jeep, and for sure my front wheels were actually on the ground and contributed to the climb. I don't bother trying it in 2WD, lol. It is just not that big of a problem with a capable vehicle. Tomes
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"Erik-Jan Geniets" wrote

Interesting picture. I've never seen an clinometer of this kind, but I can explain how it works: Outer upper scale means up hill in percent (not grade), outer lower scale down hill, inner upper scale acceleration, inner lower scale negative acc. (braking).
I.e. calculate what slope is equivalent to 3m/s^2: 3/9.8 (1g=9.8m/s^2) = 0.306 (the sinus of the angle) gradient (in percent) is the tangens =0.32.
The words "gut - schwach - schlecht" (good-week-bad) are for indicating braking performance (on flat terrain). But of course not applicable for modern cars
Cheers,
Thomas
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"Thomas Schfer" wrote:

Yes, thanks. The questions on that old page are as old. 2002 I Guess. In the mean time I figured out how it works. The up and downhill percentages are very accurate compared to roadsigns as long as you do not accelerate or brake. Kind regards, Erik-Jan.

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So I'm betting you were climbing a hill with a 20 - 30 *percent* grade...

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Alan Baker wrote:

Yes, also. Turacher Hhe in Austria, old Vulcano in Krnten. Tarmac in the winter. Some snow/ice here and there. 23 percent. At the base off the mountain there is a road sign in German which reads "4 wheel drive car's only" Kind regards, Erik-Jan.
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And on a 20 *percent* grade, your vehicle's weight is going to be pretty equally distributed on both axles.
On an 80% grade, the Audi's weight is going to be almost entirely on its *rear* wheels.
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Alan Baker wrote:

I guess so with the engine in front. Erik-Jan.

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03:58:44 GMT:

I get arctan(.8)8.66

Even 4WD with open diffs might do that.
Suppose the wheelbase is 12' and the center of gravity is 2' from the road surface and in the center of the wheelbase.
The 80% grade brings the rear wheels closer to the c.g. -- a ratio of (6-2*.8)/(6+2*.8), which still leaves 37% of the weight on the front wheels and therefore 37% of the potential traction.
The answer is YES, AWD is still important at that angle, if my guesses about the relative location of the center of gravity are right.
-- spud_demon -at- thundermaker.net The above may not (yet) represent the opinions of my employer.
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Thanks for the correction. I checked the ad again, and it was 80% grade. 37.5 degrees is more likely! It is still very steep, though
223rem wrote:

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