blasphemy

BMWs on karquattro....

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snipped-for-privacy@munich.com (Avantium) wrote in message

As a longtime BMW *and* Audi Quattro owner, driver, and fairly active club member, I've been struck by the inordinate level of 'marque worship' I see in Audi fans.
It shows up in the Audi club (NA) magazine (QUATTRO QUARTERLY) as articles that seem to have been written by Audi's marketing department as well as in messages like this one, above. I'll admit that, for the first time in the decade or so that I've been a member, the last issue had some actual *criticism* of an Audi from one author, but that's a glaring exception, IME. I know the Audi club is a lot smaller (~7000-10,000?) and relatively more reliant on the company for support than is BMW CCA, but the flagrant ass-kissing sometimes just wears on me. John Beckius' column on fixing Audis is as close as anything comes to admitting that these cars have their quirky faults and to addressing them in a reasonable manner.
In contrast, the BMW club is huge (over 70,000), as separate from BMW NA and AG as it is possible to be for a marque club, and we actually fight with them over things once in awhile. It's not unusual to see overt criticism of mechanical or (especially lately, since the M Coupe) the esthetic designs of BMWs. The ROUNDEL tries to publish *all* subscribers' letters (within certain reasonable boundaries) and this invariably carries some nasty words for BMW AG, NA, or a dealership. Columnists and club officers also freely offer criticism. This atmosphere bothers some who 'worship' BMWs, but I find it refreshingly honest and remarkably helpful to discover that the problems *I* see in BMWs are recognized by others - and often fixable by *me*. In short, the company butt-kissing is minimal. Nonetheless, the company recognizes the influence and value of the club to their business and offers support for our activities.
Don't try telling me that Audis are that much better or that much different. In terms of quality and design, they are equals. In terms of character, Audis and BMWs are both essentially Bavarian. It is this 'character' of the cars, compared to Stuttgart's overengineered and overinsulated 'Schweinen' (my own term), that draws me to them. I enjoy both marques, and their followers, immensely. I am not nearly as impressed with other German marque clubs (PCA and Benz) for slightly different reasons. The PCA members I know are a bit *too* fanatical and their cars aren't the sports *sedans* I'm attracted to. While the Benz cars are close to my preference, the Benz club folks would generally rather clean and show their cars instead of *playing* with them, as both BMW and Audi clubs do. Both PCA and Benz owners tend to *have* work performed on their cars instead of rolling up their sleeves, digging out the tools, and just doing it, as so many Audi and BMW owners will. Our club shirts are *black* - it doesn't show grease, oil, and brake dust! ;^D
It was the similarity of size, appearance, and *character* of the first Audi 4000 Quattro sedans to the BMW E30 3 Series that got me involved with them. At the same time, I owned a 2002 and I have had a succession of E3 and E28 sedans since, as well as a couple more 4000s, a 90 20V, and a Type 44 turbo; all Quattros. I haven't regretted my years in any of them and I find *no* blasphemy in associating BMWs with Audis. 'Avantium' needs to widen his/her automotive scope. I'd suggest a brisk drive in an AWD Jaguar 3.0 Sport X-Type for starters. It has converted my wife after 15 years of devotion to her Quattros ... -- C.R. Krieger Automotive Iconoclast
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C.R. Krieger writes:

<snippage>
About 20 years ago I joined the Boston chapter of BMW CCA. I didn't own a BMW. I owned an 86 VW Quantum, and later a 1990 200 Turbo Quattro. I joined the club to support it financially, and to ice race on Newfound Lake in NH. The members of that particular chapter were a fine bunch of guys, and there was little said about the fact that I was driving Audis vs their BMWs. I was selected to participate in a BMW CCA phone poll. When the young lady found out I didn't own a BMW, she was aghast as to why I would belong to a car club and not support it by driving the marque. d;o)
I never joined it, but did check out the Quattro Club. Big difference. It reminded me of the Porsche Club ("a *real* Porsche is a 911, not a 924, 944, or 928....."). I did not care for the atmosphere displayed. I have heard others say the same thing about both of these clubs, but never a bad word about BMW CCA.
Although I am a true Audi fan, I believe the BMW to be a wonderful, marvelous automobile. Other marques have my respect, but sadly, none of them are American.
Almost forgot: The Roundel is the best club rag out there. Does Satch Carlson still have a column?
Dave 2003 RS6 (Avus/Ebony) http://hometown.aol.com/davplac/myhomepage/index.html
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snipped-for-privacy@aol.comPirate (Dave LaCourse) wrote in message

Chamberlain, Izor, and the gang. Yup. Great folks.

I'm aghast that they allowed someone that dumb on the phone ...

Yeah; know what you mean. You ought to hear all the whining from the Q folks now that the club is the Audi *Car* Club of America and allows FWDs!

You need to rejoin. Satch is the *Editor*! No kidding! -- C.R. Krieger Been there; done that.
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CR Krieger writes:

Now *I'm* aghast! d;o)
I met Satch at a SCCA Rally in NH a number of years ago. I brought along my copy of "Running on Empty" and he signed it. Funny guy - he can spin a yarn. I enjoyed his columns in AutoWeek until he..... well, you know. He told this one: He was trying to impress his date with a "bootleg turn", i.e. put in a tiny bit of turn to the left and pull the parking brake. Rear wheels lock up and around you go until you are in the next lane heading in the other direction. One problem, however. Big problem too. He was driving a Saab (his favorite marque) and that particular model had the parking brake on the drive wheels. When he pulled it, the car skidded to a straight stop on the snow covered highway. Saab was fwd. I don't think his date was impressed.
As I type, I'm sitting here wearing the Yokohama (tires) long sleeve t-shirt that they gave away at the Boston convention a few years back. "Get seriously tired" with a 5 Series and a Yoky tire on the back. Dave
http://hometown.aol.com/davplac/myhomepage/index.html
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snipped-for-privacy@aol.comPirate (Dave LaCourse) wrote in message

Hey, everybody *says* it was technically not illegal in Alaska at that time! ;^)

Yeah; I learned about that stuff a few years back. Back when *I* tried the same thing, it was in a Toyota FX-16 that, although FWD, had the handbrake acting where God & Steven J. Cannell intended. That little black 'Sawed-off Japanese Snotbox' would do a perfect 180 every time. Sometimes, I really miss that car.

Oktoberfest 1994? If so, I think you need to take another look at the back of that shirt. The one they gave *me* (you might have remembered a freshly-painted white Audi 4000CS Quattro on brand new Yokos there) had a red E36. Yup; we might've 'met' - if you can call rubbing elbows in a crowd of over 1000 BMW fanatics 'meeting'. But then, that's how I know Satch, Farnsworth, Chamberlain, Taylor, Calabrese, and the rest of the notorious 'CCA reprobates, too. You know: a coupla' drinks and a few swapped yarns. -- C.R. Krieger (Been there, too!)
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Ding ding: and C.R. comes out swinging.....
Easy there killer.....
Before my A4 (which I've owned 16 months),
I had the folgenden: 1985 528i (D) 1985 535i (US) 1998 Z3 1999 MZ3 ..... alle mit 5-gang Getriebe, natrlich.
Only reason the wife got an A6 avant was because the 3 and 5-series wagons weren't big enough.....she really liked a black 540i sport wagon, and the 325Xi was so tight, but we were surprised that adults could not fit in the back seat of even the 5-er.
Besides, you can't be all bad, having at one point lived in Ohio.....I went to Kent State for a year as well...and you even top-post....even better.
Recess until 9am Monday.
warp2 snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com (C.R. Krieger) wrote in message news

---yada yada yada---
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Krieger says...

SNIP
Nice post, fun to read and right on the dot.
P.S. Check the sig. ;)
--
" ..Audi's obsession with the quattro four wheel drive system means that
it'll never quite compete with a well sorted rear wheel drive machine
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I don't know a lot about Audis but it seems Audi fans have had a lot less to moan about in recent years. Maybe we should lend them Chris Bangle for a few years, I'm sure he'd do just as good a job designing Audis as BMWs (not!) ;-))
--
Who needs a life when you've got Unix? :-)
Email: snipped-for-privacy@unixnerd.demon.co.uk, John G.Burns B.Eng, Bonny Scotland
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I guess what I notice most is: --how *so much* meaning (?) can be derived (extracted?) from four words --how so many stereotypes can be applied to a person not known to the writer --that my original post on the audi NG was cross posted to the BMW NG, perhaps to start some kind of fight(?), in which no one has chosen to engage -- how much offense can be taken from such a short message
I love BMWs, have had 4 of them, but I happen to own an Audi now (actually 2). Like them pretty well, too.
I've owned a car or 2; forgot to mention VWs of the A1, A3 and A4 chasses, a Maserati TC, and a Merkur XR4ti, in addition to tbe BMWs listed in my previous post. For the record, might as well mention, gulp, a 77 Chevy Nova, an '85 Renault Alliance (the one to watch...driving off a cliff) and an AMC Hornet wagon.
I've seen many a post by Mr. Kreiger, and he seems knowledgeable about many automotive issues; I'm surprised by the tenor of the comments. No big deal.
No underlying meaning or agenda. Just like in the original post. That's all.
warp2 snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com (C.R. Krieger) wrote in message

30+ lines of "yada-ness" snipped--
'Avantium' needs to widen his/her automotive scope. I'd

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snipped-for-privacy@munich.com (Avantium) wrote in message

Actually, I didn't *quite* apply them to *you*. I did take your remark as an opportunity to vent about Excessive Audi Adulation, so it ended up being about *them*, not about *you*.

Now, I *told* you I was doing that ... ;^)

I wasn't offended by your message per se. I am not even offended by the most annoying of the marque worshipers (BMW or Audi). I am more intrigued by them. So I criticize. It's what I do. I certainly hope you weren't offended.

Thank you. Don't take it personally. I didn't mean it that way. And don't spell German names wrong. It's pronounced 'KrE-gur', not KrI-gur', so the 'i' comes first.

OK; *this* was directed personally. Trust me; my idea (below) is still a good one. Just for yucks. Those sales guys have a *pile* of X-Types hanging around their lots (like a 120-day supply, last I'd heard), so they're delighted to have *someone* interested in them. Tell 'em you've got a couple Audis and BMWs and you'd heard these little Jags were pretty cool. They don't have to know you're not buying. And you might be surprised.

C.R. Krieger Been there; done that.
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warp2 snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com (C.R. Krieger) wrote:

I think this is because the underdog always has to make more of himself than the overdog. The overdog can afford to be critical, the underdog cannot.
Audi people are like Mac people, and I count myself a member of both groups.
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When it comes to pecking order, there are always more sheep than sheepdogs. Just to mix up as many animal analogies as possible.
--
*You're just jealous because the voices only talk to me *

Dave Plowman snipped-for-privacy@argonet.co.uk London SW 12
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See below.
DAS --
--
NB: To reply directly replace "nospam" with "schmetterling"
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'Character' *is* difficult to define. Think of it in terms of American cars vs. Asian cars vs. European cars. Each has a distinct but hard-to-define feel about it. An automotive enthusiast will almost immediately recognize them. A little more refined 'automotive palate' will be able to tell the difference between Scandinavian (odd yet appealing ergonomics and relentlessly effective in snow for no apparent reason), French (too-soft seats; far more body roll than anyone can believe), and English (Connolly hides surrounded by too many quirks to enumerate, but start with electrical problems) cars. Maybe I'm nuts, but I find Audis and BMWs to have a certain difference about them.

They still are. That's not necessarily a *good* thing, IMO. For instance, what's the point of developing a proprietary *radio antenna connector*? -- C.R. Krieger (Still the BMW Guy)
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