Buying new A4,330i, G35, CTS, C320

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Tha Ghee wrote:


Last time I checked, Germany doesn't really have ice and snow ;). They don't even allow you to use real snow tires, or should I say winter tires we use here in Finland (with little metallic spikes on the tyre). Ouh, guess what: Even they won't make it summer.
- Yak
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Try to sell RWD cars in Canada and the northern tier of the U.S. and see what you get... SUVs are popular because of a fad-- they're perceived as safer because they are larger and heavier, but this doesn't necessarily equal safety-- especially considering their poor performance and handling characteristics...

with
documented
twice
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Jay Jones wrote:

The disadvantages of SUV's in the snow are, as you have mentioned, lots of weight that is distributed poorly combined with suspensions that should be illegal. In fact, perhaps the *only* thing they have going for them -- or should I say "keeping them going" -- in the winter months is that they are RWD. (Or, optionally, 4WD, though I'm betting most SUV owners don't bother engaging that system until *after* they're in the ditch.) Just try to imagine driving on snow-covered roads in a FWD behemoth SUV!!!
I happen to live in the area about which you speak. Specifically, I live near the eastern shore of Lake Michigan in the very tip of Michigan's Lower Peninsula. Because of our proximity of the Lake, we don't get quite as cold as the states to the west of us (like Minnesota and the Dakotas). But we do get *lots* of snow. Something the weather guys call "lake effect." And my FWD Oldsmobile is the worst of all the cars I own when driven in the snow(*). It's a great car in the summer -- lots of performance and the ride is just the right compromise between handling and comfort. But my Audi has been out of commission so far this whole winter and I've been stuck driving the Olds. And I hate it. So much so, in fact, that I'm trying to sell my Caddy (which I love) so that I can afford to replace the Oldsmobile and Audi with one car that I can use all year.
And while the list of cars that I'm considering are all AWD, that is only because I can't afford any of the RWD cars that I like.
When I write that FWD is the worst layout for driving in the snow, I do so after having driven all three layouts in the snow. And FWD is the worst. At least, for me it's the worst. The claim that FWD is superior for *incompetent* drivers doesn't really impress me all that much. In fact, the idea that so many of the drivers on the road are as incompetent as this argument suggests scares the hell out of me. The safest drive layout for these people is the one that's used on the bus.
- Greg Reed
--
1976 Cadillac Fleetwood 75 9-Pass sedan
(FS: http://www.dataspire.com/caddy )
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you are the only one that seems to have that opinon-- as evident by car sales statistics in your region...

or
bother
Lower
But
the
ride
has
driving
Audi
the
handling.
vehicle --

that
of
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With a FWD car, a loss of traction under acceleration results in a loss of steering control. With a RWD car, not only can you retain steering control when traction is lost under acceleration, but you can use the throttle at the limit to control the attitude of the car through the corner. (And "at the limit" can be as slow as 20 or 30 mph in snowy conditions, so the benefits aren't just for road racers.) Why do you suppose that *all* race cars and purpose-built high-performance street cars are either RWD or AWD? The only performance-oriented cars with FWD that I can think of off the top of my head are souped-up versions of plebian commuter cars -- not car that were designe from the ground up to have excellent performance characteristics. A well-designed car that gives its driver performance benefits in high-speed driving on dry roads also gives its driver performance benefits in slow-speed driving on slippery roads.
FWD isn't popular because of its handling characteristics. FWD is popular because unibody construction is a cheap way to build a car, and FWD is a much easier layout to implement in unibody construction than RWD.
When a FWD car wears a Porsche or Corvette badge, come talk to me about the performance superiority of FWD.
- Greg Reed
--
1976 Cadillac Fleetwood 75 9-Pass sedan
(FS: http://www.dataspire.com/caddy )
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control
top
the
thank you someone on here with some sense and knows where the drive wheels should be. AWD is great in rain/winter conditions but true performance cars need the tires to spin in the back.
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A box of rocks has a higher level of comprehension than you.
Here's what he actually said (and to which I agree):
"Why do you suppose that *all* race cars and purpose-built high-performance street cars are either RWD or AWD?"
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tires to spin in the back>>
More and more high performance cars are moving to AWD every year, it's a superior system, it's simply more expensive to offer. If you can honestly sit here and say you think that RWD is better than a properly tuned AWD car, you're smoking some crack.
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sit
you're
no not at all, Ferrari, Viper, Corvette, NSX, E55, & M3 are all RWD so what high performance cars are moving to AWD?? and you're a bigger dummy than "day" if you think any AWD car can perform like a RWD. I now know what Steve got on his test in school.....saliva.
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Tha Ghee wrote:

(apparently someone still posted to this old thread). Lamborghini is with AWD.
- Yak
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what
than
Only one version of one model not both. There Hi-po model is what, RWD??
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Tha Ghee wrote:

As far as I can tell, and what several fansites and official site tell, all the models are AWD. Where did you come up with RWD ?
- Yak
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All of Audi's S and RS cars have always been AWD, the 911 Turbo moved to AWD when the 993 generation came out (even though all of Porsche's Turbos had been RWD previously, since the original 930), the C4S is obviously AWD as well. The Subaru WRX and WRX STi and Mitusbishi's Lancer Evolution are AWD, as was Mitsubishi's top of the line 3000GT and the former Eclipse GSX. Ford's had a hi-po Focus driving all four wheels, and then there's VW's R32. The Corvette and Viper are RWD for the same reason the Mustang is, they're trying to hold onto the muscle car era. Ferrari chooses RWD as does Acura for the NSX, but that's because those cars got their inspiration from the F1 efforts of their respective manufacturers. That's the same reason Porsche choose RWD for the GT2, GT3 and Carrera GT street cars, they're derived from racing cars that operate in classes where AWD isn't used. The E55 and M3 are kind of odd men out here, but it's obvious that both companies have recognised the benefits of AWD, or the 4Matic and Xi models from those companies never would have come to be.

Obviously not. The S4 was given higher marks for competence than the M3 in Car and Driver's comparo, same with the RS6 Vs. M5 and E55. If you prefer RWD that's fine, but denying that AWD has benefits over RWD is just as ignorant as denying that FWD has advantages over RWD.
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AWD
been
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your statement was that "ALL" hi-po cars are AWD and I was showing you that they're not, AWD cars are heavier and at the limits do not handle as well and are slower i.e., Skyline GTR. It has nothing to do with manuf. holding on to the past just that for true high performance the wheel in the back are the only ones that should provide motivation. Think for a second of the fastest cars in production how many are AWD, none. the 4mantic and xi are not on there top of the line model and for all but the Chevy Silverado SS, all the hi-po models are RWD. Audi doesn't make a RWD car so the only natural step was from them to offer a AWD performace car. The only reason the S4 won was becasuse the results were repeatable but a normal Joe not a race car driver, that's one of many benefits of AWD. If all top racing cars are RWD that must tell you something.
I never said that AWD doesn't have benefits over RWD I was just pointing out that all GREAT SPORTS CARS ARE RWD nothing else. what benefit does FWD have over RWD if you know how to drive it doesn't matter what whiles are motivating.
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No it was certainly not, you can google up the posting and see for yourself. Don't twist my words and take things I've said out of context simply to support your end of the argument. My comment was something to the effect of "more and more high performance cars show up with AWD every year". Go and pick up the April 2004 issue of Automobile, I got it in the mail yesterday. There's a cover article in this issue, and the cover ad says "All-wheel drive: why your next sports sedan needs it". I think there's some damn fine support for my argument here.

This is a blatant falsehodd, and I'm tempted to think that somewhere deep down, you know better. While the weight penalty that AWD cars have to suffer oftens slows them in 0-60 comparisons, they make up for it on the track and in general high performance driving. How else do you explain the S4 and RS6 having superior track dynamics to the M3, C36 AMG, Jag S Type R, M5, and E55? How do you go about trying to explain the fact that Audi dominated Touring class racing in the early and mid-1990s, prompting complaints that forced the regulations board to ban AWD from Touring. How about the fact that Randy Probst has won Speedvision's Touring car championship series at least twice in Quattro equipped Audis? BTW, BMWs with their "superior" RWD were there competeing also, sholdn't they have won?

You do realize the top of the line Skylines were AWD, right? I know the GT-R VSpec was, I'm not sure about the normal GT-R. I believe Nissan had an AWD version of the Primera also.

Actually, with the capability to run 0-60 in 3.8 seconds the 911 Turbo is one of the fastest *production* car on earth. And if you add the X50 performance package, that time drops to around 3.6 seconds.

BMW offers AWD on the 330, the top-spec version of the 3-series (M-variants excluded). And it's standard on the X5 4.4i. MB sells 4Matic on the C-class, E-class, and S-class. Last I checked, the S-class was MB's top of the line sedan. Audi only sells the A8 in Quattro trim, and it's optional on all their other non-S models.

What's natural about it? Audi could have easily either developed their own RWD car or setup a platform sharing deal with someone else. In fact, VW/Audi are in talks right now with Maserati, and if the deal goes through, the VW/Audi group will get use of the RWD Quattroporte platform. VW already has a concept, called the C1, based on the Quattroporte.

More falsehoods. Again, Audi owned rally in the late 1980s. They went on to own Touring for several years in the early and mid 1990s, and their presence has only dimished because of the complaints of companies like BMW. Randy Probst has beaten BMWs and various other RWD race cars at least 2 years now in AWD Audi race cars. And I'm quite positive Porsche and Audi would adopt AWD to their race efforts if regulations allowed it.
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Tha Ghee wrote:

And no real rally car is RWD, so there must be something to it. Idiot.
- Yak
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wheels
cars
high-performance
and that's twice what you have. day we know you have a room temperature IQ.
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lmao So I guess your answer is "Ooops"?
You are such a precious nitwit to have around. No matter that everyone here thinks you're a total luser, you keep coming back to get kicked around some more...
/daytripper '00 s4 6spd
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wrote:

IQ.
here thinks you're a total luser, you keep coming back to get kicked around some more...

and that would be better then yours of I can't erase my pen markings will this pose a problem?? by who an old inept man like you that's just says drivel all the time...ok. If you less than 60 and could see the screen with out a magnifying glass, I would be concerned but I'm not.
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Unibody construction is a cheaper way to build cars, which is why almost all cars INCLUDING RWD throwbacks like the Ford Mustang, etc... use it. FWD isn't used just because of the unibody construction issue... it is also more efficient with a transverse-mounted engine because the number of turns in the powerline reduces overall efficiency due to friction. It isn't preferred on higher-powered vehicles because of weight transfer. Without very stiff rear springs, acceleration causes the weight to transfer to the rear wheels, which would cause a loss of traction in a FWD car. The problem you mention of loss of control is the reason why FWD is deemed as safer-- it's a proven fact that FWD vehicles are more directionally-stable than RWD vehicles since they pull the mass in the direction the front wheels are pointing at all times. RWD vehicles push the vehicle, and in a loss-of-control situation, the moment arm that this produces can make the vehicle veer out of control unless the power is reduced. Experienced drivers can take advantage of this phenomenon to use the throttle (gently) to control the car's yaw during this loss-of-control. In a FWD car, if the same skid occurs, a non-experienced driver need only to point the car where they intend to go and stay on the throttle to pull the car that way once the tires grip the road. So, the best handling design depends upon the experience level of the driver in this case. As to the question about Porsche's or Corvette's being FWD: I'd like to see one of them pull up next to a souped-up riced-out Civic that can pull quarters in the 10-second-range to see what opinon they have of FWD vehicles then... just remember that there are always exceptions.

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