Cost of repair Audi BMW Saab...(crossposting)

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While the BMWs you *don't* see are the 'Xi AWD cars that beat you there ...

And some of us know that twisty roads, autocrossing, and driving speed events on race tracks wears out the *front* tires a lot more than it does the rears - unless your idea of 'spirited driving' includes lots of burnouts. It's worst on FWDs.

Actually, the end of *my* BMW life will have included driving Audi Quattros (including turbos) for 14 years, lots of fun FWDs *and* lots of RWD and a few AWD BMWs - not to mention our current Jaguar X-Type AWD (a 3.0 5-speed Sport, so you can forget trotting out your tired old 'but they're slow and have bad autoboxes' line). Of the lot, I found the Audis (at least all of them after the first 4000/90Q) to be the most boring. Even my Fiat 128 was more entertaining - when it ran. ;^) -- C.R. Krieger (Been there; done that)
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go
chains.
If it's really slippery, and given the same driver and tyres and similar engines, Quattro still beats your Xi.

are
roads
And some other ones of us know that if you go drifting on an M3, which is my point, and what really good drivers and real BMWs are best at, my argument still holds perfectly true.

tyres
Quite possibly true, but Audis may still probably be the safest of all of those.

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Uh ... yeah; whatever. BTW, I don't have an 'Xi. It's an '88 535is. RWD. LSD. If it's *really* slippery, it's a Jeep Grand Cherokee ... because the Audi won't start!

*Drifting*? WTF are you talking about? Either it's that 'Rice Rocket' trend from Japan (for which a response is beneath my dignity) or the last book you read on performance driving was written a decade before Mario Andretti won a world championship. I don't know if I qualify for your definition of a "really good driver", but I *do* instruct for BMW and Audi club driving schools. You don't 'drift' an M3! If you do, you're taking your life in your hands because the recovery runs a surprisingly high probability of snap rolling the car! I've been directly involved in racing and speed events since about 1988 and my experience says that your argument is diametrically opposed to fact.

A stunning non sequitur. Even if it weren't a hopelessly desperate attempt to change the subject, *who the hell cares*? Driving *any* car is inherently unsafe! My BMW doesn't have *any airbags* - and I *like it* that way! So why don't you just stay home while those of who know what it is to *enjoy* driving (something *not* from Ingolstadt or Neckarsulm or stuffed with more high explosives than a fireworks display) do so? Here's something for you to chew on: BMW 507. -- C.R. Krieger Life's too short to drive boring cars.
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wrote in message

With the weight of so much experience on your back, it's plain to see you've got behind the times in this aspect. The Jeep Grand Cherokee is a thing of the past! Knowledgeable people talk Tuareg, Cayenne, Range Rover, and Discovery, when efficiency is concerned - not that I am one of those :) The Audi will start, but then again, so will your 535 if pulled by a Land Rover Defender!

is my

argument
I will never doubt how good a driver you may be, because I live miles apart from where you are and much as I'd like to meet you, this is quite unlikely. Oh, well, I seem to remember you call this "tailback trailing whatnot", only I've seen people who do it for a very long time and even on the wet! I remember this as something really impressive.

of
Why change the subject? I used to drive an Alfa 75 Quadrifoglio V6 about and I must admit I've never had so much fun, not either when I tried a 325i. Still, I wouldn't replace my Audi with any BMW that was not an M3 (a pure joy) or a 330xd (one of the best all-rounders). My enjoyment is better fulfilled when I see many aggressive BMW drivers can't catch up on a really winding mountain pass even though they have bigger engines. Yeah, maybe the feeling is not the same as that in the BMW behind me, but guess who's got the biggest smile on their face?

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you've
Let me jump in here real quick. I happen to be a 4x4 enthusiast and enjoy a great amount of offroading out here in the beautiful West. In our club's annual extravaganza's we always hire a tri-roller to the site and always have SUV's and 4x4's of various models, makes and levels of customization compete. And when we go out on trails we have members of every marquee persuasion.
*****the only out-of-box AWD/4x4 cars, SUV's or trucks that ever beat the tri-roller (three vehicle wheels on rollers and one wheel on solid substrate, all which changes from wheel to wheel as the vehicle tries to ascend over the ramp) are the Jeep Grand Cherokee with Quadra-Drive, not Quadra-Trac, and the BMW "x" models in either 3 series or X5/X3 form*****
Nothing else has ever made it over the ramp......nothing, and we have seen every model and make on the road in the USA. Quattro, on various Audis, all the LR vehicles, Land Cruiser, 4Matic, Suburu, 4-Motion, Cayenne, Toureg...the list goes on. The tri-roller is the perfect test of which system offers torque to the needed point(s) at the four corners of the vehicle.
The first measure of capability is how the vehicle tries to power the tractioned wheel(s), the next is what rubber it is fitted with. Outside of that, and before issues like articulation and approach/departure/breakover angles, throttle tip-in, gear ratios etc., nothing else matters yet. On slippery conditions, particularly uphill conditions, how the power is applied is the most important factor (assuming proper rubber).
I like the Rangies, and they are better than stock Jeeps in certain areas, but they don't do well in this type of condition. Particularly given their rather high weights. And the Cayenne and Toureg are pretty fair awd units, but also pretty much hype in real difficult conditions. Don't even think that Quattro is the equal of any of those mentioned. Car magazines don't have a clue when it comes to real 4WD/AWD functionality.
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On Thu, 13 May 2004 16:22:12 -0600, "Jess Englewood"

Your test is a valid test of whatever it's designed to test. Perhaps as a discussion of uphill driving with very slippery or loose surfaces it's valid. As a test of street driving, I can't see that it matters much.
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wrote:

Oh, I agree, I was speaking only to the specific statement I jumped in on. There's no doubt in my mind a Toureg or Cayenne drives better on the street than a JGC :^)
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I have always contemplated the Land Rover Defender as the most efficacious off-road beast and I doubt it very much it can't make it up your three-roller, if anything else can. Then again, if you'd elaborate on why Quadra Drive and the X could possibly be better than the rest of those you mention, I might get to be enlightened :) In the meantime, I have much more than a fair amount of reasonable doubt that your test is not biased.
In our country roads here in Europe, it is usually Cherokees that get stuck first on difficult terrain, and I have yet to see the Porsches and Tuaregs perform, but I can tell you that just about any Land Rover - except for the Freelander, beats the whole legion of Cherokees hands down.
JP Roberts

of
Land
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all
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That would actually be the Hummer, original version

It can't....as a stock vehicle.
Land Rover's 4x4 system is not predicated on 4 wheels locked to one and other, but rather two axles locked to one and other. And the planetary center diff does not effect apparent torque transfer fast enough. Remember Land Rover's design is predicated upon the belief that planting 4 wheels, by their tremendous articulation, is the way to effect the best traction. But that won't cut it where the traction patch moves from one wheel to the other quickly.
Remember my comment was about vehicles in the US. When Defenders were available here locking axles were not an option. If LR now offers defenders out-of-box with locking axles then I have no doubt it would make the ramp, but as supplied here with open axles that is simply not the case.
In spite of that I do have agreement with LR that open axles create a more reliable offroading machine in most cases.

Being a Rover fanatic, it is unlikely enlightenment is in your future :^)
Joking of course, but really it is matter of the speed with which the 4x4 system allows the evidence of torque to the requiring contact patch as well as the ratio of torque being made availbable to a single contact patch. On the tri-roller the shift from roller to substrate happens in inches, and then happens again and again and it is the simple truth that only the Quadra-Drive and "x" vehicles make it.
One disclaimer here: The Hummer won't fit on a tri-roller, though I have liitle doubt it could make it easy. On our Moab runs Hummers, the real ones, not the H2's work as the gunners and they make most of the obstacles everyone else struggles with, easy, forward or backward. A truly, unbelievably, astoundingly, capable vehicle.

Most Landie people do :^) But everyone tries to drive over the *same* ramp. A ramp that basically forces any vehicle to drive with only one wheel, while moving that wheel around the four corners of the vehicle, quickly.

stuck
There are lots of 2 wheel drive Cherokees, lots of Quadra-Trac Cherokees, lots of bad tires, and lots of bad drivers. Out test is on "Quadra-Drive Grand Cherokees". You would have to be far more specific if I am to lend any credence to your experience on "country roads".

the
Ah...now you've earned another Landie merit badge. Bigger "nuts", you haven't said that yet though.
But I drive offroad, in the snows, muds, gravel and elevations of the Rocky Mountain as well as the slick-rock and formations of Moab, and we have all kinds of wheelers in our club and in almost every case it comes down to tires and driver. My personal opinion is that the most capable offroad machines are #1) Hummer (original) and #2) in no particular order: Jeep (TJ,YJ,CJ), D90 (not D110...too long), and a number of FJ's (indeed Land Cruiser probably makes the very best full line of offroad 4x4's).
Your insecurities caused to you to perceive my reply to be a comment against Land Rover. But I can only tell the truth.......it is your problem to inject a sense of proportion to your perpsective.
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CRK can always be trusted to come up with something like that... I have no airbags either and I like it that way too...
So does my daughter who can ride in the front in *my* car but not any other one that we or various other nearby family members have owned in the last 7 years.
-Russ.
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Thank you. Why anyone would decide to play the "my car has more airbags than yours" game in a thread on Audi/BMW/Saab repairs is beyond me. Maybe Roberts, here, is doing a research paper on how many times he can totally divert a thread with non sequiturs ...

Same here. She even brags about it to her friends. BTW, you managed to snip off the *number* of the BMW up there: "507". No bags, no roll bars, popup or otherwise, no 'soft' or 'rounded' controls inside. Owner-added lap belts. Known leaky carbs (from the factory!) with the gas ducted from a catch tray down onto the ground. "EPA? Who's that?" Still, BMW's best 1959 drive. -- C.R. Krieger (Been there; drove that.)
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Thanks for the praise but if you check the posts in this thread, the one who started talking airbags when we were discussing RWD, FWD and AWD was Krieger:

////A stunning non sequitur. Even if it weren't a hopelessly desperate /////attempt to change the subject, *who the hell cares*? Driving *any* /////car is inherently unsafe! My BMW doesn't have *any airbags* - and I /////*like it* that way!////
When I wrote safest I was thinking of active safety, not airbags!
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OK; you're on. Want to match autocross moves? Your Audi. My ancient BMW. Maybe you'd prefer to compare lap times at Road America ... -- C.R. Krieger (Threshold brakes)
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Now you will talk speed, not safety :)! Interesting enough that you mention threshold braking though, because I think that's something many people should learn to do. I don't doubt your BMW might be faster if you chose the road or circuit, but if I was granted the privilege of choosing my own road, then things would be very different.
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You think so? Whaddya want? Sears Point? Going to the Sun Highway? Sebring? Mnchen to Interlaken? Watkins Glen? Yellowstone to Jackson Hole? Mid Ohio? Loveland Pass? The Amalfi Drive? Lime Rock? Oaxaca to Veracruz? Ohio 555? Aosta to the Matterhorn? I haven't even been to all those places (the most anal retentive researchers might discover it's all but one), but I'm ready. -- C.R. Krieger (Been there; drove that)
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I've never met either of you, so I have no idea of your driving abilities. It would be interesting for you to race on any of those roads, exchange cars, and do it over again. That would help eliminate driver skill from the equation, assuming you were both fairly competent, and let the virtues of the vehicles be seen. That's what this thread was originally about, right? Well, no, but it would be an interesting comparison anyway. But then again, I'm not sure what model BMW and Audi you guys own - if the BMW was an older powerful RWD sportscar (like the 507) that was 1000+ lighter than a newer (safer) much heavier AWD Audi sedan, the BMW would run away with a race unless the road conditions were truly horrible. Racing a 3.2 TTq vs. a 3.0 Z4 would be more of a direct comparison for the AWD vs. RWD debate.
- Byron
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Just let me know when you're in Europe.
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JP Roberts wrote:

That shouldn't be too difficult, only 2500 miles across ;-)
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Oh, oh. That sure looks like flame bait posted to an audi newsgroup to me...
-Fred W
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It might be, coming from someone who hasn't *been here* as many years as I have. You'll notice not many of our regulars have taken me up on that remark.
Hey, compared to most other cars, I *liked* my Audis! It's just that I didn't happen to *own* most other cars. I *do* happen to have owned and/or driven lots of *very* entertaining cars over the years, so my perspective is quite different from most Audi devotees. -- C.R. Krieger (Still cranky)
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