Cost of repair Audi BMW Saab...(crossposting)

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"crippled in handling"? Apparently, Fred hasn't experienced the difference between dry road AWD neutrality and BMW's famous trailing throttle oversteer ... -- C.R. Krieger (Been there; done that in the Kink)
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wheels
My
car
Hmmm, trailing throttle oversteer... just another tool in the driver's toolbox, no? What better way to get that back end around the corner in a hurry? ;-)
-Fred W
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"left foot braking", anyone? Fun technique in a Saab, is to keep on the gas, hit the brakes with your left foot, and let the back end slide to where you want it. Makes going around corners on snow/ice much more fun and exciting, and with practice you can get some great speed improvements.
Dave Hinz
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i never understood trailing throttle oversteer. also when does understeer happen. thanks Imad
C.R. Krieger wrote:
</pre> <blockquote type="cite"> <pre wrap="">I personally would rather have a BMW with a nice set of low profile wheels and Z rated summer tires and second set of wheels and winter snow tires. My second set of wheels and tires would cost what, $600? vs. buying an AWD car and being crippled in handling for 95% of the year? I can take my snow tires off in the summer. Can you take off your AWD hardware? </pre> </blockquote> <pre wrap=""><!----> "crippled in handling"? Apparently, Fred hasn't experienced the difference between dry road AWD neutrality and BMW's famous trailing throttle oversteer ... -- C.R. Krieger (Been there; done that in the Kink) </pre> </blockquote> </body> </html>
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The subject was touched on in "Re: How much does an OEM e46 M3 hood weigh??" Think of it in the context of how much weight is on the rear wheels (or front wheels). When you lift your foot from the throttle, what happens: you are no longer causing a weight transfer to the rear of the car. If the lessened weight causes the rear tires to lose their grip *while the tires have a lateral load* (ie, you're in a turn), the rear will slip and the rear of the car will rotate towards the outside of the turn, resulting in oversteer (the car turns more than you've turned the wheel.)
FloydR
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wrote

weigh??"
In the case of an M3, it is more the to the point mentioning that oversteer is generally the result of applying a generous amount of HP on the rear wheels at the beginning of a turn (ESP off), applying steering correction and then carry on modulating with the accelerator pedal and steering as the need demands.
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[snipped]
If the above isn't the victim of a typo, I invite you to take a look at the torque vs rpm curves of biturbo 30v 2.7L audi engines and any straight-six NA bmw engine you care to examine.
Clearly, you will be surprised...
/daytripper '00 s4 6spd
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Boys, boys, this has turned into a pissing competition...
DAS
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OK; but who won? ;^) -- C.R. Krieger (Been there; done that)
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all is true except the bad weather BMW! I have a bimmer and live in Montreal, the land of snow! I have no problems in bad weather (well very very few problems to be more precise). All you need is a good set of tires. but nothing beats the quattro in snow, i grant you that! Imad JP Roberts wrote:

--------------020801090404050802040601 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN"> <html> <head> <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;charset=ISO-8859-1"> <title></title> </head> <body text="#000000" bgcolor="#ffffff"> all is true except the bad weather BMW! I have a bimmer and live in Montreal, the land of snow! I have no problems in bad weather (well very very few problems to be more precise). All you need is a good set of tires. but nothing beats the quattro in snow, i grant you that!<br> Imad<br> JP Roberts wrote:<br>
<blockquote type="cite"> <pre wrap="">For me, BMW are too common on the roads. They are not particularly fuel efficient (petrol), </pre> </blockquote> <pre wrap=""><!----> I think it is precisely BMW that produce the most efficient petrol engines available, given similar power figures. Turbos could arguably be driven more efficiently at low speeds, but then again, this is not so clear an argument under normal driving conditions. And everyone knows a nice torquey 6-cylinder or bigger engine is always preferable to a turbo engine, because of the inherent turbo lag and poor low-end performance. The problem with most BMWs is they are useless in bad weather and if you want to have fun on the dry you may want to spend big bucks on visiting the tyre shop as often as the filling station. This is why I am an Audi driver.
</pre> </blockquote> </body> </html>
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actually. i dont know anymore if all you said was true! But I DO know what you said about the weather is NOT! :) Imad
Imad Al-Ghouleh wrote:

--------------010509020206000909000603 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN"> <html> <head> <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;charset=ISO-8859-1"> <title></title> </head> <body text="#000000" bgcolor="#ffffff"> actually. i dont know anymore if all you said was true! But I DO know what you said about the weather is NOT! :)<br> Imad<br> <br> Imad Al-Ghouleh wrote:<br> <blockquote type="cite" cite="midDzWnc.21662$ snipped-for-privacy@news20.bellglobal.com"> <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;"> <title></title> all is true except the bad weather BMW! I have a bimmer and live in Montreal, the land of snow! I have no problems in bad weather (well very very few problems to be more precise). All you need is a good set of tires. but nothing beats the quattro in snow, i grant you that!<br> Imad<br> JP Roberts wrote:<br>
<blockquote type="cite"> <pre wrap="">For me, BMW are too common on the roads. They are not particularly fuel efficient (petrol), </pre> </blockquote> <pre wrap=""><!----> I think it is precisely BMW that produce the most efficient petrol engines available, given similar power figures. Turbos could arguably be driven more efficiently at low speeds, but then again, this is not so clear an argument under normal driving conditions. And everyone knows a nice torquey 6-cylinder or bigger engine is always preferable to a turbo engine, because of the inherent turbo lag and poor low-end performance. The problem with most BMWs is they are useless in bad weather and if you want to have fun on the dry you may want to spend big bucks on visiting the tyre shop as often as the filling station. This is why I am an Audi driver.
</pre> </blockquote> </blockquote> </body> </html>
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wrote:

Do they? 330i: 225HP, 20/28 with automatic. Honda Accord: 240HP, 21/30 with automatic.
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in article snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com, dizzy at snipped-for-privacy@nospam.invalid wrote on 5/12/04 6:22 PM:

Obviously no way to prove or disprove which engine is more efficient from the above. Too many other variables, not the least of which is published vs actual mileage which often varies a lot. My take is that the BMW engines are very good in this respect, and perform very close to claims. Certainly there are others that do equally well. My 330i was surprisingly fuel efficient given the acceleration capability. Even my M3 does pretty good as long as you don't "nail it"
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engines
I do not think HP is a very good indicator of engine efficiency, do you? And mpg will only work if the two cars the engines are in are the same (of the same weight and coefficient of drag).
-Fred
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On Thu, 13 May 2004 10:59:49 -0400, "Fred W." <Fred.Wills@allspam myrealbox.com> wrote:>

Duhhhh.... No, I don't, Fred. I included the HP numbers as evidence of the motors having "similar power figures".

They're pretty damn close in that regard, as well. I'd post the car's weights, but I'm afraid you'd sarcastically ask me whether I thought if weight was a very good indicator of efficiency.
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engines
The Accord engine you're talking about is only efficient past redline, and its torque is ridiculous by comparison. The mileage figures you're talking about are only good when you drive calm. If you "nail" the Honda, you'll get not only way less torque and satisfaction but also worse mileage.
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wrote:

Huh?
How is it's torque "ridiculous", JP?

Huh?
What?
Same for the BMW, genius.
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Are they too common, or do you simply notice them more than other cars? Do a fun experiment and count the cars passing by on the freeway. Then provide some figures. I can't speak for other countries, but in the Netherlands you'd lose count of the Peugeots, VWs, Fords and Opels before you count a couple of BMWs. Yet, I *see* more BMWs (or expensive Mercs and Audis) simply because they stand out more in traffic.
Same thing for the "Get out of my way" thing: a Golf or Peugeot that's being pushy on the freeway would leave a less lasting impression on you than that one shiny BMW.
I can't remember all the Renaults and Volvos and VW driving up to my tailgate, probably thinking, "yeah, I'm gonna show this BMW my car's better/faster/whatever". Very occasionally I see a BMW or an A3 do the same. Yet *those* times I can remember.
People see what they wanna see.
Peter
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At least in Germany seeing lots of BMWs and Mercs is no illusion! They are top sellers: http://www.kfz-auskunft.de/kfz/pkw_neuzulassungen_2003.html
In the Netherlands I seem to see Mercs on every corner...
DAS
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Dori A Schmetterling wrote:

Yes, I know about Germany. Germans know what to drive and how to make it. :-)
But I don't believe the OP was in Germany.
I wonder, what are the top selling cars in England? Do you know a site with stats?
The top selling cars in Holland in 2003 were: 1. Opel (55.698 nieuwe exepmplaren) 2. Peugeot (52.412 exemplaren) 3. Renault (47.159 nieuwe auto's) 4. Ford (42.146 nieuwe auto's) 5. Volkswagen (40.390 exemplaren)
Unfortunately, the list ends here.
http://www.planet.nl/planet/show/id 1155/contentid78393/sc$bcc0

Do you count taxi cabs? That's not fair :-)
I'll make a short drive around my neighborhood, just for fun, and count the Mercs and BMWs I see. I'll post the results tomorrow or the day after. I'll also post the number of corners, and then we'll know.
Peter
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