Guess What (follow-up)?

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After having a massive rear brake

Why this replacement?
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JP, siezed calipers, pooched rotors. Apparently, the rear calipers must not like the salty winter roads so much - I was told the local Stealership goes through loads of brake replacements every spring on CRV's and Odysseys - bad owners, of course. Honda used to be different - they replaced the whole rear suspension and gas tank on a recall on my parent's 1982 Civic Wagon when it was 13 years old. Cheers! Steve Sears 1987 Audi 5kTQ 1980 Audi 5k 1962 and '64 Auto Union DKW Junior deLuxes (SPAM Blocker NOTE: Remove SHOES to reply)

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Can you provide any links proving that any other presumably "serious" makes have had problems with suspension arms?

Again I'll appreciate any links you can provide in that direction, as the only things I seem to have read about Honda was that they were by far much more reliable than any German makes, and every owner seemed to be more or less pretty happy about their Hondas. And I know Audis look better but the type R is a hell of a car performance wise and with such a high-revving engine, this should last no longer than a couple of hundred miles, if the parts in this engine were of a similar standard to that of VW suspension rod ends.
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JP Roberts wrote:

Arms? We were talking about the replacement policy, right?
But ok: Google search for '$BRANDHERE front suspension problem' gives
Honda http://tinyurl.com/9jcny http://tinyurl.com/abu76 http://tinyurl.com/9b5ta
Toyota: http://tinyurl.com/89hff This one might be worth a quote: ************** My experience with Toyota was the same: they rush and do a minimal work to appear trying to fix things and when they fail they tell you that they do not know what to do next or they refer you to the Toyota Representative.
I suggest that you ask your dealer put you in contact with the Toyota Representative and if that does not work try arbitration (1-888-300-6237).
I also suggest that "you do not hold your breath(!)" even if arbitration results in your favor. The decision is supposed to be "binding on Toyota," it isn't. In my case even if the arbitrator decided that Toyota should repair the car, Toyota did not. ***** End Quote http://tinyurl.com/br9d4
BMW http://tinyurl.com/beh4z http://tinyurl.com/a6g2u
Merc http://tinyurl.com/bqca5 http://tinyurl.com/99s5d

Ok. Just for starters (unfortunately in german, but you'll recognize the pattern. The less the number of needed assistances is, the better it is):
Roadside assistances medium to upperclass cars http://tinyurl.com/8j3dl medium class: http://tinyurl.com/drqzc
Then I got bored searching.
Regards
Wolfgang
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Do not appear to be general or serious and for the first two there is no indication that the car owner had to pay for the repairs.

In the end it turned out to be tyre related, so not relevant.

The first turned out to be the muffler, the second, however, is relevant, though there is nothing about control arms, only springs and struts, which is not really in the same league as far as wear is concerned.

The first is about an off roader so that's a completely different matter. The second is not specific at all.

Statistics is the science by which if a man has eaten a chicken and another one has not eaten one, at the end of the day they will both have eaten half of it each. Anyway, it would have to be seen how many more Mercs and BMWs are there on the German roads, by comparison to the number of Audis. I believe the ratio must be somewhere between 2 Mercs per every Audi, and 1.5 BMWs per Audi, though of course I still prefer my whole Audi to that remaining half a BMW :)!
Not trying to pull anyone's leg, here and do appreciate your efforts but I remain unconvinced.
JP Roberts
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JP Roberts wrote:

So you had your warranty work done on recall 5 years ago, and you now have 100k miles on the clock and expect that a wear item should be replaced under warranty?
I know the suspension arms on Audi's is poor but they do last for at least a few years which is "good enough"
I would say bite the bullet and live with it, you still got a nice car, remember most Audi owners are repeat customers, once you buy an Audi you dont go back :)
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I feel it's especially

The point is that they are badly and underengineered and this is exactly why they must be covered for the life of the car.

It is precisely because of this soft critical attitude that they will get away with it yet once again.

This is exactly why they should treat us with some respect instead of disdain.
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Disdain is cheaper.
JP Roberts wrote:

Opps, Disdain is cheaper.
But where I go I am treated very nice indeed. No matter what the manufacturer, I'm sure there will be bad examples happening.
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JP Roberts wrote:

I *have* read your other posts. If the part is not currently causing a problem, then they should not have to replace it. This is not an Audi-only thing - they *all* do it.

Again, the policy of not replacing parts that are not currently broken causes some hassles. Maybe Audi could have sourced all the needed coil packs all at once. And maybe tequila is suddenly going to pour out of a faucet at home. Until Audi had a large enough supply, there *just weren't enough* coil packs to replace four when one was faulty.

Flat out wrong.

Mercedes and BMW have exactly the same policy.

As I have said before, you had better start shopping for a luxury Japanese make to reduce the strain on your heart.
Where again is this dealer that's not replacing non-faulty parts for free?
E.P.
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Until Audi had a large enough supply, there *just

I can't believe you bought such a lame excuse. This is no excuse at all, remember they do have all the necessary cars it takes to supply just any market. If it'd been a Chinese customer placing an order for 500 A6 on condition that they must be made within three week's time they sure would have taken and fullfilled the demand.

Where's that link?

I friend of mine had the whole of his '02 M3's engine replaced 2 months out of warranty before it broke - which remains to be seen whether it would have happened. This is exactly the right and opposite policy. I don't know about Mercedes.

Pretty much everywhere else when it's a clear case of underengineering.
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JP Roberts wrote:

It's not an excuse, but reality. The fact is that the replacementsa didn't exist in great enough numbers. When they did exist, then all the packs were replaced at once.

Hardly. You can't just wave a wand and have parts materialize out of thin air. Do you know anything at all about heavy manufacturing?

Link to what?

There's more to your story than you are saying. In fact, BMW had a very specific problem with their M3s, due to oil issues. And some dealers do work with their customers, to make sure they come back, regardless of corporate policy. I know of several people who had warranty work done outside of warranty eligibility, just because they had good dealer relations.

Are you an engineer? No? Then you cannot say that it's a "clear case."
I'm becoming curious as to why you are not naming this dealer that's so shoddy. If what you say is completely true, then what's the problem?
It seems to me as though you want a lifetime warranty on wear parts where no other manufacturer has such a policy. All because your German car is a little more expensive than other cars to fix. I will repeat my suggestion: sell your Audi, and buy a Honda or Toyota product. Everyone wins.
E.P.
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I do know the basics about assembly line work, but then again I bet there is not only one coil pack manufacturer in the world. Now, there's probably only a cheap one, which happens to be the one supplying them. So, it's nothing a couple more bucks investment couldn't have solved in an instant.

reason enough, which happens to be the case.

an engineer although my knowledge of car mechanics is rather limited, but I can still easily tell from the many woe stories when something has been underengineered, but it doesn't take an engineer to not fail to see this. Also, upon inspection deterioration is so obvious that there's no denying the bad engineering.
If I'm not naming the dealer it's only because it's thousands of miles away from where most of you probably are, so you're perfectly safe in that respect, and because the point is that this contemptible behaviour is pretty much extended where I am based. I would dare to say that the good stories are the rare exceptions. But with a few exceptions like that of Wolfgang, I think it's the make's policy that's faulty. If you doubt what I'm saying I would like you to point me out to just a couple of links in which our make has covered something after the guarantee had expired.

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JP Roberts wrote:

Have you read the links I looked up for you as far as other brands are concerned?
In your (understandable) bitterness you are now trying to ask for the impossible. As has been discussed numerous times, the folks who got their Audi serviced properly, quickly and who were taken care of have absolutely no inclination to write that down.
The Audi Group delivered 1.2 Million units to customers in 2004 and 2003. Volkswagen as a total 5 Million Units per year worldwide. How many posts does Audiworld have which are that negative? How many posters show up here every month to ask for some help? 10? 20?
But I can only meanwhile recommend the same as other posters: Go and get another brand?
Regards
Wolfgang
--
1999 Audi A6 Avant TDI

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wrote:

Allow me to praise my dealer (which I think I've done in this space: John Holtz Audi in Rochester, NY). They've never ripped me off. They've given me good advice and diagnoses. However, I have not always (or often, for that matter) gone to them for major service work because their prices are so much higher than the two independent shops I can choose from locally. And those shops also do great jobs with Audi and other Kraut import cars.
Back to the dealer: they're forthright about their prices, and my market bears them, but I don't participate, that's all, beyond the routine oil change for the most part. And they're still very good in the customer care department. I value their involvement in the care of my 1998 2.8 A4 Quattro.
Unfortunately, I've gotta replace some control arms on the front passenger corner, at 86k miles, but that's life with an Audi, and I still feel I'm coming out way ahead valuewise. This paid-off car is still cheaper for me to run than a new car with payments, and I love the whole driving experience with it. I'll be going to Universal Imports for this work, I think, which will cost me half of what Holtz would charge. But I do like CDI out in Victor, too.
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Wolfgang, did you read my reply to those links posted above?

These are still a minority when it comes down to general satisfaction with the treatment received. Just do a search in Audiworld.

There's no denying that these newsgroup is a valuable asset, but no matter how impressive your figures are, you're neglecting the fact that the vast majority of Audi Owners will never take to the internet to vent their frustrations with the make out.

I'm seriously considering BMW as my next buy.

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If your intention is to convince readers here that all Audis are "under engineered" and that we've all been ripped off, you will never succeed. Those of us reading the group who have had good value and satisfactory products from Audi, will sympathise but dismiss your story as a one-off. That's the natural reaction if our experience doesn't match yours.
Time to move on, unless you're trying to speculate on a "class action".
--
David Nesbitt

N.B. Email sent to "nospam" will be rejected. Please use Reply-To address.
  Click to see the full signature.
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JP Roberts wrote:

For that particular application? You do not have the slightest clue about the particulars of that case, and now you somehow claim to know about how many suppliers there are?
OK, here's an exercise for your own amusement - a question to which I actually know the answer:
At the time of VAG's coil pack problem, how many manufacturers could have supplied, at a one-week notice, a batch of one hundred of those specified coil packs?

Answer the question above for enlightenment.

Then why bother having a warranty period, hmmm? If it breaks, we'll fix it, no matter how old the car? No matter what mileage, no matter what sort of abuse or modification? OK, so that's the silly extreme, but there does have to be a line drawn somewhere. You happened to fall on the other side of it, and your dealership is taking a hard line and saying "tough luck."
Just like every other manufacturer's dealerships in the vast majority of these kinds of cases. Wishing otherwise is a foolish exercise.

You admit you're not an automotive engineer, so in this case I guess I really am right. Making your "clear case" comment is just so much prattling on.

Except you're not an automotive engineer, so your "inspection" is meaningless. A few stories and some hearsay from some folks who have a monetary interest in getting your car on a hoist is not evidence. I suppose in your courses of study in engineering you had to take some classes in real, hard sciences, right? You can tell the difference between hard and anecdotal data, yes?

All the more reason to name this dealer. Because now it's *your* credibility that I'm questioning. Normally, I give the benefit of the doubt to the customer, and assume the dealer is the problem. Now I'm beginning to get another idea in your specific case.

Why? I've heard of more good stories in this thread than bad.

LOL. You think the car should come with some all-inclusive lifetime warranty for everything, including stuff that other people have had replaced under warranty.

I would not expect them to cover something after the warranty had expired, unless it was a recall item. Audi or some other manufacturer. If you wanted a longer warranty, then you should have purchased one. If the cost of repairing your out-of-warranty car is too dear, then you need a different car that's cheaper to fix when it breaks.
I would like to know why you expect free service and parts after warranty for non-recall items when that virtually never happens for any other make or model. Why should Audi do what no one else does, and not charge more for it?
E.P.
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You very well know it was not a one-week notice period, but at least a couple of months that we're talking about, so yes, just about every other manufacturer could have done so easily.

You know one of the virtues in life is that of showing some flexibility? Again, where's your link showing our make covering something out of warranty?

You're right it's only your guess, which happens to be wrong.

Let me put it this way, when you see you're bleeding badly, do you need to be a cardiovascular doctor to know if there's something seriously wrong? Even a child would understand something like this.

I've long been questioning yours, as you fail to maintain a logical argument by slightly diverting from the main topic all the time.

Again, you're failing to remember that it's a case of underengineering, so another reason why your own credibility is close to nil.

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[Snip]

The only fault which has affected the drivability any of our Audis, in a total 11.5 years of ownership was when a fuel injector failed on my 1996 A4 2.6. It failed about 2 months out of warranty but Audi UK covered the repair at no cost to me.
--
Peter Bell (Note Spamtrap - To reply, replace 'invalid' with 'bellfamily')

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Point taken, but check this, just for starters:
http://forums.audiworld.com/tt/msgs/869113.phtml

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