Newsgroup Etiquette

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On 10 Apr 2005 21:01:37 -0700, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:


Why sadly?

Er... didn't you start this by whining in the first place.... hmm...

LOL! This from a fella who gets upset about the way people lay their posts out....
andyt
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On 10 Apr 2005 11:01:53 -0700, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:

Sure, but by changing the degree, you totally invalidate the comparison. What I'm saying to you is that top-posting is accepted, enjoyed and preferred by many people. And you try to compare this with something that isn't. It's not a valid comparison *because* you have changed the degree.
Ask yourself this. If top-posting was so bad, made such little sense and bottom-posting was the obvious way, then why do so many people top-post? You'd think they'd all be confused and want to change...no?

The *huge* difference is that rude mobile behaviour is only ever acceptable to the perpetrator and is not something which is welcomed by others around them. Top-posting on the other hand is not a problem for *loads* of people. Your comparison is again invalid.
This is the bit you must ask yourself. If it's *so* bad, why do so many people prefer it and have perfectly good conversations using it?
*Why* is that?

Why would people do this? Do you think that they're being rude on purpose - to annoy you or something?
Is it *just* *not* *possible* that they actually prefer the style and find it easier to use? Can you not appreciate that at all?
Try to appreciate that usenet is just a shared resource where people post messages that other people see. No-one has to pander to your preferences any more than you have to pander to theirs. If you have trouble interpreting their posts then by all means ignore or killfile them if you want to, but they have no obligation to change their preference just to pander to those who can only understand one style of post.

Hmm.. you're still showing that you don't understand that it's the *quotes* that are presented in stack order - not the new text. With a lack of understanding like this, I'm not so sure as your opinions on it can really be taken seriously.

I'm not sure of the specifics of your analogy because I'm in the UK and I dunno what a turn lane is (and presumably the left/right is the other way around). However, I notice that you present yet another analogy - if your complaints WRT top-posting are valid, why do you have to resort to so many analogies just to make your point? Are you perhaps acknowledging that your complaints don't sound so valid when presented within the actual topic...

Interesting word you use - "History". Also interesting that you appreciate that this netiquette has been around "for quite some time". What you have to appreciate here is that times have changed. The internet technologies and the demographics and behaviour of users has changed dramatically in this time. Hence so have people's preferences. Essentially, you're just behind the times and whining about standards that seemed important in 1990. Do you still like your web pages to be static HTML and animated GIFs? Because that's the era you're harking back to. The RFC's probably contain various things that seem ludicrously out of date these days.
Learn some new tricks. There's more than one way to make a usenet post, and neither preference is wrong or invalid. Just another preference.
Someone laying out a post in a stack style really shouldn't be enough to confuse you, it really shouldn't...
andyt
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Perhaps it is a throwback to the old days. When downloads took so long, the person forgot what was being said. So it was nice to have all laid out in order, when you got back from the bathroom or what ever. I really don't see it being easier to read bottom posting. But then I started reading both ways. In fact when I think about it, I like quoted references underneath, kinda like a footnote. Like everything else, primacy rules. Meaning what you learned the first time, is what you will stick to.
Anybody watch the Magnum reruns on tv? Poor Higgy-baby always stuck driving the Audi.....Steady on lads.
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On Sat, 09 Apr 2005 20:36:21 -0400, Jules

Good points, very well put.
The demographics and usage patterns of the internet have changed massively over the years and this is due in large to the way the technology is changed. Years ago, people would be on dial-up and would access usenet once or twice a day. Trimming was much more important then. Now that people can dip into usenet far more often for shorter times, a much chattier style of post has emerged - posts that often contain only a single point. These posts do not require context quoting, hence top-posting makes the most sense.
Times have changed, that's all.
andyt
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On 8 Apr 2005 21:43:50 -0700, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:

Different styles of driving *are* accomodated, as are different modes of transport and indeed different models of car. Since you (presumably) drive an Audi, do you exect that everyone drives one since that is your preference? Do you think people that drive other models are wrong? Do you think motorbikes should be outlawed too?
Incidentally, it speaks volumes that you've bailed out of replying to any message of mine, yet you're still sniping and whining elsewhere.
andyt
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Andy Turner wrote:

You mean like driving 5 under in a passing lane? Or those folks who swing wide for right turns, blocking two lanes? Folks who stop needlessly on on-ramps, because they can't figure out how to merge? Dream up some other legal, but discourteous traffic behavior that suits the scenario. There are probably thousands. But you get the point.
Unlike you, I support courtesy. You support "if it feels good, do it - to hell with the rest of you."
MFFY.

Have I ever said that?

Have I ever said that?

Have I ever said that?

It speaks volumes that you are running around a.a.a. humping my posts trying to goad me into a flamewar. Find another hobby.
E.P.
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On 9 Apr 2005 08:57:18 -0700, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:

The only point I see is that you just *cannot* bring yourself to appreciate that top-posting is a preferred and welcomed style by thousands upon thousands of people. Your analogies are always wrong because they are with practices which are either dangerous or entirely unaccepted. Y'see those are not driving styles that are perfectly accepted and welcomed by loads of other people. However top-posting *is* perfectly accepted and welcomed by thousands of people.
Your analogy fails.
If you want to compare top-posting to something else, then you have to compare it to something which is also preferred by a great many people - such as motorbikes versus cars.

Again, wrong. You do not support courtesy because you expect other people to adopt your preferences. It's selfish and it's ignorant.

No, it was a question <doh>. The question still remains - do you expect that everyone should follow your preference WRT the car you drive?

Again, no - it was a *question*. If you'd already said it, I wouldn't be asking would I...

Er.. right, once again.. it's a *question*.
However, I think you're perhaps getting the point. To make such requests based on your own preferences would be ridiculous. I'm glad to see that in at least some walks of life, you're happy to accept the choices other people make and don't expect them to make the same choices as you.

Running around?! LOL!

This is not about a flamewar (have I flamed you *at all*?), this is merely trying to help you adjust your self-centered attitude with regard to expecting everyone else to adopt your preferences. Whenever I back you inter a corner, you bail. However, you then start to whine elsewhere with the same botched and false arguments. This, as I say, speaks volumes.

I would suggest the same WRT your top-post whining. If you hadn't decided to start moaning about it, I wouldn't be responding now would I..
andyt
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Andy Turner wrote:

I see it just fine. They are in a small minority, and are generally repudiated.

Heh. Driving the speed limit in the passing lane is not inherently dangerous, and is not illegal everywhere. Posting in caps or html might run afoul of some newsgroup charters, but in alt.* groups, most anything goes. That does not imply that those behaviors are not rude.
It's merely a matter of degree.

LOL. You have just abdicated the argument. Those behaviors are on display every day, by hundreds of people. And that's just in this area. In big cities, you'll see multiples of the same rude driving behavior.

People still claim the world is flat, that the moon landings were faked, and that the Earth is 6000 years old.
Doesn't make them any less wrong for holding sincerely onto their false beliefs.

Riding a motorbike (the mere act of riding) has never been considered rude behavior. Your analogy fails miserably. Grasp another straw.

If they were merely *my* preferences, you'd have a point. But they were standards of behavior set long before your or I ever wrote our first usenet posts.

An attempt at a strawman construction. As are the rest of the "questions." Again, these standards exist separate of me. The majority holds them as correct.

If proper posting were merely my own preference, you'd be entirely correct. But it is not. It is the preference of the majority, and existed previous to MS Outlook and other wrongly-top-post-default programs.

In matters of ettiquette, I *do* expect people to make the same choices. That's how a community gets along. I don't clog the passing lane, and I expect my fellow drivers to do the same. I use center turn lanes, don't swing wide to turn right, don't left turn into the far right lane, and all sorts of other driving behavior that helps everyone (including me) get where they are going with the least amount of hassle.

A figure of speech. Finding all of my posts and humping them to pound your chest.

Sure, if name-calling or other ad hominem commentary can be called flaming.

Again, they are not merely *my* preferences.

So, you can't control your own posting. Sad.
E.P.
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On 10 Apr 2005 10:31:25 -0700, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:

As are many preferences. Does this make them wrong? What about vegetarianism, scientology, people who cycle to work, ethnic minorities even - are they all wrong because they are minorities? Are they being rude to us? Should we stamp them all out?

Only by those who are blinkered, self-centred and can only handle one style of writing (I mean, really - how hard is it?!) . Blimey, I'd hate to think you conduct yourself with this kind of bigoted outlook in real life.

And as I've said over and over now, once you change the degree, you corrupt the comparison. Not only that, but in your analogy you've switched to a situation where third parties never welcome and prefer that behaviour, whereas in top-posting - they do.
Why is it, do you think, that you have to make analogies in order for your complaints to appear to make some sense? If yours were a valid complaint within the subject, then it would make sense there - without the need for incorrect and bogus analogies.

Yes, but the point that is *painfully* eluding you is that third parties do not welcome this behaviour. It's been the problem with most of your analogies. If you want your analogy to make sense, then you'll have to find an example of behaviour which you would call rude yet is cheerfully accepted and preferred by some third parties (not the person exhibiting that behaviour). WRT a driving analogy, you'd have to find an example where in many cases, the person behind (ie, the third party), has no problem at all with the behaviour that you find to be rude and actually prefers the guy in front to be doing it.

Yeah, maybe some people have a habit of holding onto some beliefs when other people have moved on...

LOL! Y'see, this is where your blinkers truly reveal themselves. This isn't any kind of "false belief" - it's only a differing preference! WRT posting styles, there is no wrong and right, only preferences!

*Exactly*. We all accept other people's choices WRT cars and bikes even if it's not the choice we would make. Now then, why can't you accept other people's choices elsewhere?

Actually it served me *beautifully* and I'm hoping it helped you to see the light. I'm hoping it helped you to see that people make choices and have preferences all over the place and just because someone makes a different choice to you, doesn't make them rude (as you clearly appreciate WRT cars vs motorbikes).

"long before", indeed. And things have changed since then, that's all. Get with the programme. There are a great deal of reasons why the modern and more recent contributor to usenet would prefer top-posting. However, you ignore all this and expect things to still behave as they did in 1985.

Hmm... you don't seem to understand strawmen. I was *asking* you a question, not supposing your opinion or answer. This clearly was not an attempt at any strawman.

Ah, you again avoid answering the question a second time. Funny that... It's clear that you're avoiding acknowledging that you do not expect everyone else to adopt your preference of car and perhaps you've seen the contradiction that puts you in WRT your expectations on usenet.

Which of course doesn't mean that the minority are wrong - it's just a different preference.
Think about this. You will no doubt be in one minority group of some sort. Have a think about what that is - and how you would feel if that group was outlawed simply because it was a minority preference and that the majority decided they didn't like it and it was rude.
It'd be ridiculous wouldn't it...

Of course it is, but once again, that doesn't make the minority preference wrong, nor give you any right to try and stamp it out.
That'd be ridiculous wouldn't it...

I think most usenet clients leave the cursor at the top of the post when replying. Agent (the third most popular reader in this group), certainly does.

If you found yourself in a group where top-posting was the majority, would you make that same choice then?

A community gets along by not whining to each other about totally trivial matters such as the way they lay out their posts. A community gets along when people respect each others choices and preferences.
This Audi community was getting along quite nicely before the top-post whining started...

That's great, but as detailed above, your analogy is totally irrelevant because there isn't a group of drivers that would actually prefer you to adopt the bad driving behaviour.

Finding all of your posts? I've responded to *various* people here, it's just that you have the most obtuse attitude towards accepting other people's choices (and indeed, other people's opinion, as you explicitly admitted).
In any case, is it a problem for you that I'm replying to your posts? Would you like me to go away and stop pointing out the holes in your analogies and the self-centred and blinkered attitude you are displaying? I'll bet you would...

Right.. so where have I called you any names then? Please quote or provide reference.

They're the preferences of the majority of course. Which doesn't mean that the minority is wrong... *remember that* if nothing else.

Of course I can my friend.. but if you weren't top-post-whining in the first place, I wouldn't have a decision to make now would I...
andyt
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Once upon a time *Andy Turner* wrote:

If you prefer to ride a bike or even walk does'nt disturb me, as long as you keep your self walking on the side walk or bike on the right side of the road (especially if me meet eatch other).
But I would not accept if you lived next door to me and choose to have great partys every night, with loud music and drunk yelling guests.
So accepting other peoples choices when it not disturb others is no problem. The problem comes when they try to turn everything upside down!
If you like to do a test, start a thread with somebody who bottom post every other time when you top post between, without cutting anything. Make 10 posts eatch and look at how stupid it looks, with all your posts at the first half of the last post.
Maybe you can see the "thread" in it, and you may even do so posting mails p2p if you like, but news is not for those only who start a new thread!
--
/Arne

Top posters will be ignored. Quote the part you
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You make the same mistake as "E.P.", in that your analogy doesn't apply because there isn't a group out there that welcome and actually prefer people to be having loud parties with drunk yelling guests next door.

Top posters don't turn everything upside down, they simply quote for reference and quote using a stack style.

I'm sure it'll look bizarre - but whose fault would it be? What you're effectively saying is that one should follow the posting trend set by the first respondent. Would you do that if the first respondent top-posted?
andyt
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Once upon a time *Andy Turner* wrote:

So what you mean, is that if some of your other neighbours should not mind your loud parties with drunk yelling guests (maybe even be one), that would be ok to have the partys even if all others would mind. Just because not everybody oppose to it and maybe even like it?

You should do as the custom is on the group you are posting on, bottom post where it's ask for and top post in groups where that's the custom to do so. You seam to do so for at least the thread you post in, like in this. So what's the problem to do it every time?
I don't think you mind bottom posting, you just want to argue and you reach that by objecting to anything that can cause an argue.
I'm off now. Bye! :)
--
/Arne

Top posters will be ignored. Quote the part you
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Not "not mind", but actually *prefer* that there be a loud party going on next door with drunken guests, than there not be - at any given point.
Now then, do you know of large groups of people like that?
This is why the analogy fails. You simply have to find something which large groups of people *prefer*, but which you find objectionable. And whenever you do that, you're going to hit the same brick wall - that just because *you* don't like it, doesn't make their preference or choice wrong and you have no right to try and insist that they adopt your choice instead.
Of course, like I said to our friend, one has to wonder why in order to make your point, you resort to analogies that distort the situation. If your complaint were so valid, then it would be valid by talking about top-posting, not having to talk about drunken parties.

Nope, because top-posters prefer top-posting *all of the time*. So the comparative group you are looking for are those that prefer there to be a loud party on next door than there not be, at any given time.

Ah, you seem to have avoided the question. Here it is again: Would you continue to top-post in a top-posted thread to avoid the confusion that your above text shows that you appreciate would occur if you were to not top-post?
And to answer what you *did* write, would you top-post in a group that is primarily top-posted? IME in the commercial workplace, multi-party email threads are almost always top posted, where the newest respondent puts their reply at the top of the stack. I trust you would follow suit there then?

I *do* do it every time since that is my preferred style. However, I appreciate that other people have different experiences and will choose different styles. It'd be ludicrous for me to think that everyone will make the same choices as me and I wouldn't expect them to, nor try and insist that they do.

*Of course* I don't mind bottom posting, I don't mind interleaved posting and I don't mind top posting. I mean, come on, they're only style preferences after all... It ain't rocket science!

Sorry, but no. I didn't even start this, the top post whining started this. I just figured I'd point out the rank hypocrisy, selfishness and blinkered outlook that top-post whiners generally have.
Oh and incidentally, look at how interleaved posting in this thread has left the attributions at the top of this post in a complete mess. It says "On Mon, 11 Apr 2005 23:52:48 +0200, Arne wrote", and yet what you *actually* wrote on that day doesn't appear until *30* lines lower down (perhaps off the screen for some people), after various things that I said, that you said previously, and that "E.P." wrote also. Top-posting eliminates this problem.
andyt
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On 8 Apr 2005 13:01:37 -0700, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:

If a preference works for a great many people (as top-posting does), then it must be valid. I don't see thousands of people posting in all-caps. Your analogy therefore is not valid.
Do you think all usenet posts should be in English, since that is your preferred language?
andyt
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Andy Turner wrote:

Then driving the speed limit in the passing lane is valid. As is almost universal cell phone use in public.

It's a preference, isn't it? Just a matter of degree.

In groups that are customarily English, yes. But I do see your strawman attempt.
E.P.
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On 10 Apr 2005 10:35:53 -0700, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:

Is this a situation where you'd like them to move out of the way so as you can drive above the speed limit? If so, then I don't see the problem and it's amusing to see which behaviour you think is wrong.

This happens all the time in the UK, there are only a few places where it is frowned upon. In those scenarios it is universally frowned upon and no-one does it. Hence it doesn't compare to top-posting, which is welcomed by a great many people.

And by changing that degree, you make it incomparable. Thousands upon thousands of people enjoy top-posting and prefer it. Who exactly are *you* to say that they are wrong?
Let's say you happen across a thread where 4 or 5 people have had a conversation entirely by top-posting. The thread has ended, no-one got confused and people said what they wanted to say. Now then, what would be your problem with that? What exactly would these people have done wrong in your eyes? And, perhaps crucially, what relevance would your opinion on their thread have to them? Why would they care what you thought about their thread?

That's good. What about in other language groups?

Oh dear. This is no strawman (especially since I *asked* for your opinion instead of supposing it), just helping you to see your prejudices.
Of course, if you want to explain why that was a strawman, go right ahead.
andyt
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