RE: 2004 Audi TT

There are only 3 or 4 other cars in the world that can match the S4's equation of performance and luxury for around the same amount of money. That's bang for the buck. The 996 Carrera 2 will pull 0-60 in 4.5-4.6 seconds, few other cars are as competant on the track, or as easy to turn fast times in, almost none of them brake as well. That's bang for the buck. There's not a sedan ON EARTH faster than the RS6, and even for $100,000; that's bang for the buck. Getting bang for your buck means knowing what you want and buying it. If all you're looking for is straight line numbers, used Ford Mustang Cobras can be had in the mid $20k range and run 5.1-5.5 in the 0-60 dash. How about a 1994 Corvette ZR1? 405Hp, 0-60 in like 5.0 seconds, limited edition, runs in the low $20k range. Or a 993 Carrera 2? 0-60 in 4.8 seconds, ultra well built, able to thrash 90% of anything else around a track, for $42-55k. And a CBR1100XX will take any of them in a 1/4 race.

Erm.. except Top Gear? They have a magazine, as well as run a TV programme, y'know ;o)

Incidentally, the last-model M3 inpressed more because of its smoothness around a track, rather than out-and-out performance. IIRC the new model has a smidge more power and a smidge more weight. While spinning wheels and kicking the back end out around corners might look good for magazine photographs, the only reason to do that on a (paved) track is to slow down when you've misjudged the entry speed to a corner.

Hmm. Looks like you're going to be spending a fair amount of money (not least in insurance, unless the market is /that/ different in the US - in the UK, taking the TTR225 to 270bhp is good for a 20% hike in costs. That gets a /lot/ bigger once the other mods you'll need are fitted.. and you'll need more than a chip - that would simply push that car up to arounf the 230PS mark.

Speaking as someone with a TT in that power range - a lighter car - you are going to have a big shock with that 0-100 figure.

0-100km/h, yes, 0-100mph - wake up, you're dreaming!

H1K

I believe the Torsen center diff in Audi Quattro would compare to the driver adjustable center diff in the WRX. The Audi Quattro electronically locking front and rear diffs would compare with the active diffs on the WRX. I'm sure I would prefer a Torsen to a driver adjustable center diff (since I don't race). I'm also sure that using ABS to make the Audi front and rear diffs maintain grip is a less than perfect solution. What is an active diff as used in the WRX? How does it work?

Aar

It uses electronics and a computer to mimic a "true" Limited Slip Differential (LSD) under certain circumstances.

It has the benefit of acting like a normal diff in normal use, but of putting power down when you've lost grip on the other wheel on an "axle". Using an LSD on the road isn't that much fun.. although it's a very good way of exploring hedges (if you're into that sort of thing ;o) if you "boot it" on a slippery straight road.

In the wrong hands, think of it as "torque steer on steroids".. very useful for sliding your way around bends though (which looks terribly good, but is usually slower than using a bit of planning and having adequate grip in the first place)

H1K

Thank you very much. It sounds like a perfect rally car solution.

Hairy One Kenobi escribió en el mensaje de noticias

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Quite, I was thinking 0-100 Km/h, of course. I am not so sure about maintenance costs getting higher but of course you could be right there. Even so, with the full setting up - no need to worry about insurance higher costs here so far - a 270 HP A4 will need a bigger turbo, piping and reprogramming as the stock 190 IC is generally OK, which should cost about Euro 38,000 here. A new S4 will cost 60,000. Now that should be more than double the money needed to cover any extra maintenance. And on that note, S4 parts are always far more expensive than those for plain A4s so I still think basic maintenance is even more expensive for an S car.

Couldn't agree more on the point you make about the ABS - more brake fade and maintenance expenditure for less grip.

I read something about active diffs in a magazine some time ago and they definitely said that was a much more evolved solution. I'll see if I can find any articles on that.

JP Roberts

Aaron Daniel escribió en el mensaje de noticias pqyMa.126180$ snipped-for-privacy@twister.southeast.rr.com...

Steve, "bang for the buck" is usually defined as how much performance can be had for as little money as possible. The performance/dollar ratio. And most folks don't consider the braking values in that comparo.

A Porsche 996 is great, but if you want the most performance/dollar spent, you are going to be shopping for a Corvette. While I would agree that bargains can be had out there in the used car market, I think we were all talking about new cars. Heck, I can get a used B5 S4 for less than the cost of a new, loaded A4. It's an apples/oranges comparison, just like sportbike/sport sedan.

Yeah, the stock tires suck. On my A4, that was the first thing to go. Uprated rubber REALLY makes a difference.

Rally-bred cars are going to do well in rally-type situations. But JP seems to think that speed is the end-all, be-all. I prefer a total package. :)

Spider

What is an active

What kind of diff is it if it's not a "true" limited slip one?

While this is true of the diff in the front axle of the new Focus RS, no magazine ever said an Evo was difficult to drive except if you brought it to its very limits, so could you elaborate on that?

Hmm. You seem to have a very cheap tuner in mind.. using the Audi Configurator, the base price of the car (no including options, apparently, although my Spanish is minimal) is EUR32k for what appears to be a 163PS model (!).

That price is starting to look a little tight for a turbo, plumbing, and fitting costs.. don't know any tuners in Spain, so let's take a peep at some UK prices from AmD: OK, turbo upgrade £2500; rechip "from GBP450", typical seems to be GBP700; sports exhaust (cat-back only) GBP405; new (working!) DV, GBP80. Now, let's add the VAT and get GBP3685. Let's assume that the Euro is still as strong against the pound as it is at the moment (unlikely, IMHO), and we get around EUR5250. Without fitting or handling mods.

Not sure how much fitting on that little lot would be (bearing in mind that we've already spent that EUR38k) - probably a couple of thousand Euros. No real information on the handling packages that you'd need to get close to an S4 - just "from GBP1475" [EUR 2100] for the brakes and "from GBP275" [EUR

320] for the springs and dampers.

Add the fact that you've just voided the warranty on your new car in pretty much all areas, and I'd say that you'd probably have to spend EUR45k to mimic an S4.

But that's not all - I don't know the market in Spain, but it's quite hard to sell a heavily modified car over here - it's just too specialist - and you should not expect to claw back a penny (or cent!) that you've spent on the mods - often the reverse.

So, in your effort to be frugal, you've "saved" EUR15k, but will immediately lose a proportional amount of 13k (your car will follow the depreciation of an A4, the S4 will still have residual demand from its rarity).

In other words, this approach may end up /costing/ you money..

..not that I've any problem with this - the world would be a very boring place if everyone thought alike. OTOH, maybe it's a good idea to think again about "your" car being that much cheaper than an S4.

Oh. And there's no guarantee of the power getting close to what you're after, although a full Nitrous kit, custom manifolds, Front-Mounted Intercooler and ceramic cats (call that an additional EUR6000) should get you 350bhp, as measured on B3VES in the UKTTOC. At least in short bursts.

H1K

An electronically controlled one - a "true" LSD is the sort of thing you would see in a 1960s track Mini, and is purely mechanical.

Sure. A normal diff is used to equalise the speeds of the two wheels as the vehicle describes an arc - basically, the outer wheel has to go a further distance (larger radius), and hence moves faster.

The problem is, if one wheel loses grip altogether, then *all* power is sent to that wheel - the result being that you get bogged-down.

The solution, then is to limit the amount of movement - or "slip" - that the differential will provide. This means that the wheel /should/ no longer spin, but will always supply power to the road.

Of course, this also means that, each time you try to turn-in, you are fighting the LSD. (Bear in mind that I'm not talking pootling to the shops (a Smart would be perfect, if that's all you're looking at doing ;o), but when pressing-on along a track or clear, empty road)

Which is one problem.

The other is that, when, say, you're on an empty road with a slippery surface, one tyre can get momentary grip, causing the car to lurch sideways.

On a sufficiently narrow road (e.g. a Clubman rally), the driver needs supurb reflexes to avoid close inspection of hedges, trees, gullies, etc. It's also the reason why, on jumps, you'll notice that WRC cars tend to lurch sideways on landing much more than a "normal" car.

H1K

You're joking, right? Are you unaware that Audi's numbers are *always* conservitive? C&D took that car from 0-60 in 5.2 on multiple runs, and tests from other magazines indicate this as a reliable number. Better tires would probably drop that time down.

That's pretty much where I was going with my last post, did you read it?

No you most certainly would not. If you were looking at Vettes' at all, it would be the Z06, not the lackluster base model. On the other hand, Porsche's

911 GT2 does 0-60 in 3.6 seconds, has a 190+ MPH top speed, pulls around 1g on the skidpad, and will thrash 99% of everything else ever made. It's a hell of a lot more expensive than a Z06, but look at what you're getting for the money. Besides, if all you want is 0-60, thos Superbikes are still tops.

Then you're never really getting maximum bang for you buck. 1st year depreciation is a killer!

Low mileage S4s still sell in the mid $30k range here, almost as much as a B6

3.0. But it's a hell of a lot more car for the money.

Not joking. 0-60 mph is roughly 0-100 kmh, so I guess we're both saying the same in a different way. 5.2s for 0-100 kmh is for the M3.

Steve Grauman escribió en el mensaje de noticias snipped-for-privacy@mb-m07.aol.com...

Do they really sell for this price? Here they generally cost some 25k but I don't think I'd like to buy one unless I knew the owner. Now, in my opinion the old S4 is better than the new one because it offers so much room for tuning. I would also be interested in buying a second hand S4 if I lived in the US, but here they tend to be imported in parallel and you never know wether they might have been "write-offs out of the beauty salon".

superiority

On rough roads and in every situation that requires nimble behaviour and bursts of acceleration maybe?

And I quote:

"Everybody except apparently you seems to agree that the M3 is much more fun to drive."

Since you have stated over and over about this being the penultimate reason for buying a car, one must assume that "More fun to drive" = "better."

But it's a nice weasel. [snip]

Hardly.

You can state it over and over and it still won't be true. If you can afford a certain thing, it is not immediately evident that you can afford a thing OVER TWICE AS EXPENSIVE. (S4 vs RS6 in the U.S.)

I did.

It does.

It is. Over 90 HP more powerful than it's predecessor.

And 11 HP more powerful than it's direct competetor.

Spider

No need to be an asshole. Sheesh.

When magazines do these kind of "bang for the buck" articles, they aren't talking about cars that are in the $75k-$120k and up price ranges. I mean, why compare an S4 to a GT2? That just doesn't make any sense. I guess we could compare a Golf TDI to an S4, if we're gonna go that way...

When you start talking about exclusive sports cars and sedans, "buck" becomes much less important, and "bang" is where it's at.

ISTR that the base 'Vette and the base 996 perform similarly. I do not have the numbers right in front of me.

I would say that someone shopping for a Z06 would not just pop for the, what, DOUBLE, extra scratch for a GT2. "I can afford a Golf, but I guess I'll buy an S4 instead?" Doesn't make much sense.

Exactly right. Every performance purchase has it's trade-offs, and if it's pure numbers/dollar spent that is your goal, it's impossible to beat a superbike.

In practice, I agree. I think buying a new car is a sucker's game. I'd rather buy a car just off warranty (with a full service history, verifiable, complete and unblemished) than take a gamble on a new car (built on a Monday after a drinking holiday, etc, etc.)

But when you open the discussion up like that, talking about Evos, WRXs and S4s has not too much meaning. I looked in the paper today - I can get a 993 for well under $40k. Pretty good bang for the buck, if you ask me. :)

I've seen MY2k S4s out there for under $30k. Not many, but a couple. I would not bank on their mechanical condition, however. :)

Depends on how the car was used/abused. If you blow up a 2.7TT motor right after you've bought that "bargain" used S4, I'm afraid you'll be spending the equivalent (in total) of a new S4, AND have no warranty after you're all done. Not much of a bargain.

That's why it's simpler to compare new to new, and not open it up to the endless parameters of used cars. Hell, we could start pitching in mods, too. :)

He seems to think on rough roads, and when you need to accelerate. Well, 'round these parts, even the dirt roads are pretty smooth, and if the suspension is up to the task, then the S4 could actually come out on top. It's not as cut and dried as JP thinks.

But if I were running in a rally-type event, I'd sure want an Evo. :)

Spider