The A4 and the impending MKV Passat...

VW is keeping pretty busy getting the MKV Golf ready for it's U.S. sales debut, but with the MKV Passats development coming to an end, I think the Audi
division, and A4 buyers in general, should be concerned. The fifth generation Passat is going to be pushing hard into A4 territory, offering up at least two versions of the new 3.2 litre VR6, the least powerful of which will produce 250Hp, as well as a new 2.0 litre turbo-four. This, in addition to the facts that the Passat will be avaliable with 4Motion, and that a 300+ Hp variant is in the works, with a $35-36K price tag, is most certainly of concern to me as a VW/Audi enthusiast. With the 3.0 litre, 225 Hp V6 being it's top engine (in the non-S/RS variants), the A4 will be falling behind the Passat in terms of power, as well as in terms of it's price:performance ratio. BMW's up-rated "new" 330I coupe boasts 235Hp and a 0-60 time in the high 5s, and an A4 based coupe (if one ever comes to light) is a ways off. Audi is pushing hard for mass-failure: more powerful, more competant, and less-expensive cars are coming to market everyday, the 330i sedan, and the upcoming MKV Passat may be the least of Audi's concerns.
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Steve Grauman wrote:

"Upcoming Mk V Passat"? Wouldn't the new one be Mk VI (B6)?
-- Mike Smith
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<< "Upcoming Mk V Passat"? Wouldn't the new one be Mk VI (B6)? >>
My mistake, you are correct. The current Passat is technically an MK5.5, the new version will be the MK6. Although, I'm not sure VW can use the B6 platform name, as that is the platform name for the new A4, and I don't believe it and the Passat will be sharing a platform any longer.
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Steve Grauman wrote:

Are you sure? I thought the "B5.5" nomenclature was just made up by VW fans to refer to the 2001.5+ Passats, but that it wasn't an actual platform designation.
-- Mike Smith
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<< Are you sure? I thought the "B5.5" nomenclature was just made up by VW fans to refer to the 2001.5+ Passats, but that it wasn't an actual platform designation. >>
I'm not sure if VW uses it internally or not. I just refer to the 2001 and newer Passats as B5.5 because they had a nice list of upgrades, but not enough to merit a whole new platform designation.
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snipped-for-privacy@aol.com (Steve Grauman) wrote in message

Then how can it "technically" be the designation?

LOL. So, "technically", it's your opinion.
Spider
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<< LOL. So, "technically", it's your opinion. >>
Well, actually it would be the opinion of myself and millions of VW fans/owners all over the world. Besides, neither of us *know* that VW does not use the MK5.5 designation internally.
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Steve Grauman wrote:

Well, neither of you *know* whether I have an invisible fire-breathing dragon in my garage, either, but I would think that unless proven otherwise, you'd assume that I don't, no?
-- Mike Smith
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<< Well, neither of you *know* whether I have an invisible fire-breathing dragon in my garage, either, but I would think that unless proven otherwise, you'd assume that I don't, no? >>
This analogy is a little out there, don't you think? I'm not even claiming that VW *does* use the MK5.5 designation internally, just that it's possible. Even if they didn't, the fact that so many people (a large group of them on the VW NG alone) use the term shows that it's still valid in conversation. It's not simply a 1-off term that only I use. Besides, arguing over the offical designation of the current Passat is hardly relevant to the discussion.
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Steve Grauman wrote:

I didn't say you were. I was simply pointing out that a lack of proof that something *isn't* true does not constitute proof that it *is*.
-- Mike Smith
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<< didn't say you were. I was simply pointing out that a lack of proof that something *isn't* true does not constitute proof that it *is*. >>
I agree, but Spider doesn't have any proff that it isn't used either.
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snipped-for-privacy@aol.com (Steve Grauman) wrote in message

Since it's not used officially by VW in any of the publically-available documentation, I would suggest that this is proof that it's not a technical designation. It's merely something that VW fans use. Nothing more.
Spider
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snipped-for-privacy@aol.com (Steve Grauman) wrote in message

So, it's not a technical designation. Millions of people use the phrase "I could care less," but that doesn't make it meaningful. Even if VW uses it internally, it's *still* not a technical designation.
Hey, just admit that it's non-technical and move on with your life. Defending the term seems kinda silly.
Spider
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<< Hey, just admit that it's non-technical and move on with your life. Defending the term seems kinda silly. >>
I'm not defending the term. I'm defending myself aganist a fellow poster who seems ever-ready to nit-pick.
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Stick to your VW then mate. I will still choose the Audi. Who gave VW the 3.2 oh dear that must be Audi then...
At the other end of the scale what is the new golf to be based on, oh dear that must be the new A3 then...
What diesel engine will the new Golf be sporting, oh dear that must be the New 2.0 FSI Diesel from Audi then.....
It goes on..............
The Passat has never and will never, despite being a competent Car, carry the Class of the A4. It tries too hard and shouts too loud. It dates too easily and will remain competitive but only with the likes of Ford, GM, Mazda etc. Against them , I would choose it but against the A4, 3 series BMW, Mercedes C Class, forget it.
Do you really believe that the group will engineer or conspire to push VW to the fore in direct competition to the other prestige marques and in doing so commit automotive suicide by designing the demise of such a distinguished brand with the four rings.
Even the Yanks couldn't get it that wrong.....May be not!
I for one will continue to enjoy the M3's Nemesis a beautiful Black S4 AVANT oh yes it does have fitted one of the finest V8'S Money can buy... Must be an Audi then!
Go find a gullible VW News Group to Spout off too. We can take care of ours.
Gez.......
If so you must be deluding yourself

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<< Who gave VW the 3.2 oh dear that must be Audi then... >>
No, the 3.2 litre VR6 is a purely VW design.
<< At the other end of the scale what is the new golf to be based on, oh dear that must be the new A3 then... >>
Actually, your backwards. The A3 is built on the MKV platform, which VW designed for the Golf first.
<< What diesel engine will the new Golf be sporting, oh dear that must be the New 2.0 FSI Diesel from Audi then..... >>
You see this as a plus? With VW now carrying Audi engines, it leaves buyers with even *less* incentive to step up.
<< The Passat has never and will never, despite being a competent Car, carry the Class of the A4. >>
It's 90% of everything the A4 is for thousands less. And my father owned a B5 A4, so I have a direct comparison.
<< against the A4, 3 series BMW, Mercedes C Class, forget it. >>
I'm not sure I can honestly say I'd pick *any* VW/Audi product over the competitive product from BMW. The A8 Vs. the 7 series would be the only exception. The C-class is overpriced, under-whelming, and generally crap for people who want nothing more than the name. The SL and S-class sedans are MBs only strong suits.
<< Do you really believe that the group will engineer or conspire to push VW to the fore in direct competition to the other prestige marques and in doing so commit automotive suicide by designing the demise of such a distinguished brand with the four rings. >>
Not only do I believe they'd do it, I *know* their doing it. The Toureag pushes over $50k when fully loaded, and the Pheaton, sharing many parts with the A8, is due soon, with a price tag veering close to $100,000 USD when fully equipped. Are you that blind? Can't you see that VW is starting the push into BMW, MB, and Audi territory?
<< Even the Yanks couldn't get it that wrong.....May be not! >>
First of all, the Americans had nothing to do with this. Secondly, "maybe" is one word.
<< Go find a gullible VW News Group to Spout off too. We can take care of ours.

Blind brand advocacy like what you're spouting is what's allowed Audi to remain complacent and unresponsive for this long. Watering down the problem makes it seem less like a problem, but watering down scotch will ruin it, watering down a problem so the company can ignore it will only prolong the problem, and ruin problem.
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face=Arial size=2>...</FONT></DIV> <DIV><BR><FONT face=Arial size=2><BR>&gt;No, the 3.2 litre VR6 is a purely VW design.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><EM><FONT face=Arial size=2>&gt;Sorry, I refer to the V6 3.2 being fitted to the current UK TT.</FONT></EM><BR><FONT face=Arial size=2><BR>&gt;Actually, your backwards. The A3 is built on the MKV platform, which VW<BR>&gt;designed for the Golf first.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>&gt;<EM>My understanding from Audi UK is that the platform was jointly accepted and adopted although it is </EM></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2><EM>&gt;difficult to establish which payroll the designers were benefiting from at the time.</EM></FONT></DIV> <DIV><BR><FONT face=Arial size=2>&gt;You see this as a plus? With VW now carrying Audi engines, it leaves buyers<BR>&gt;with even *less* incentive to step up.<BR></FONT></DIV></FONT> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>&gt;<EM>Yes I do.&nbsp;VW are&nbsp;ditching their 150 Diesel in favour of the more technically advanced and smoother 2.0 Audi unit.</EM></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2><EM>&gt;I run a company Golf GTI TDI 150, it's a riot of torque and raw muscle but smooth it most certainly is not and it squeaks and creaks</EM></FONT></FONT><FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2><EM>.</EM></FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2><EM>&gt;I still like it though!</EM></FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2><EM>&gt;The updated Audi &nbsp;1.8 T 190 power plant&nbsp;is rumoured to be added to the VW Golf range&nbsp;on the European market, </EM></FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2><EM>&gt;this is a great four pot engine.<BR></EM><BR>&gt;It's 90% of everything the A4 is for thousands less. And my father owned a B5<BR>&gt;A4, so I have a direct comparison.<BR></DIV></FONT></FONT> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><EM>&gt;I have owned 3 A4&nbsp; models and would always seek to get that extra 10% you get with the Audi product. I would not be able </EM></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><EM>&gt;to say that my ownership has been totally trouble free but&nbsp;problems have been very minor, with both problems sorted out quickly.</EM></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><EM>&gt;My local dealer very nearly put me off Audi for good last year, as a result of arrogance and poor customer focus but they </EM></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><EM>&gt;lost their franchise to another company who have proved excellent.</EM></FONT><FONT></DIV> <DIV></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2>&nbsp;<BR>&gt; I'm not sure I can honestly say I'd pick *any* VW/Audi product over the<BR>&gt; competitive product from BMW. The A8 Vs. the 7 series would be the only<BR>&gt; exception. The C-class is overpriced, under-whelming, and generally crap for<BR>&gt; people who want nothing more than the name. The SL and S-class sedans are MBs<BR>&gt; only strong suits.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>&gt;<EM>I concede you point regarding the C Class, although I believe the E Class to be more responsible for rebuilding Mercedes</EM></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2><EM>&gt;reputation for quality and will prove a weighty competitor for the forthcoming New A6 and the now released BMW 5 Series.</EM></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>&nbsp;<BR>&gt;Not only do I believe they'd do it, I *know* their doing it. The Toureag pushes<BR>&gt;over $50k when fully loaded, and the Phaeton, sharing many parts with the A8,<BR>&gt;is due soon, with a price tag veering close to $100,000 USD when fully<BR>&gt;equipped. Are you that blind? Can't you see that VW is starting the push into<BR>&gt;BMW, MB, and Audi territory?</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><EM>&gt;No I am not blind to the quality products VW produce but they simply cannot expect to push into</EM></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><EM>&gt;this territory and not receive some serious competition. This is illustrated perfectly by the quiet withdrawal of the Phaeton</EM></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><EM>&gt;product from sale in the UK. It will further be&nbsp;illustrated by the poor Touraeg sales in the UK and the arrival of the Pikes Peak</EM></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><EM>&gt;will only&nbsp;serve to highlight&nbsp;their problem in this market.<BR></EM>&nbsp;<BR>&gt;Even the Yanks couldn't get it that wrong.....May be not!&nbsp;<BR> <BR>&gt;First of all, the Americans had nothing to do with this. Secondly, "maybe" is<BR>&gt;one word.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>&gt;<EM>Apologies, didn't mean to sound off so, thanks for the grammar correction!</EM><BR></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2>&nbsp;<BR>&gt;Blind brand advocacy <FONT color=#ff0000>like what you're</FONT> ( <EM>A little dubious in it's construction</EM> ) spouting is what's allowed Audi to remain<BR>&gt;complacent and unresponsive for this long. Watering down the problem makes it<BR>&gt;seem less like a problem, but watering down scotch will ruin it, watering down<BR>&gt;a problem so the company can ignore it will only prolong the problem, and ruin<BR>&gt;problem.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>&gt;I believe there exists a remarkable synergy between Audi and VW both have&nbsp;much to contribute</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>&gt;but I do believe that Audi Designers and Engineers contribute more to the&nbsp;Volkswagen AG group </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>&gt;than say VW contributes = </FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2>to the likes of&nbsp;Skoda and Seat.</FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Cheers.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Gez.......</FONT></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
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Gez wrote:

Um, no. The 3.2 "V6" is actually a VR6-type design, ergo originating from VW.

The A5 platform has been in development for some time now, and AIUI was intended from the start to be used for both the new Golf/Jetta and the Audi A3. It's not an "Audi" platform, it's a VWAG corporate platform, to be used across a variety of models, including not only VW and Audi but also SEAT and Skoda as well.
Now, of course, the technology development/sharing goes both ways (e.g. the 4.2 V8, 1.8T, etc.), and the Audi models are obviously intended to be more upscale (though there is the Phaeton...) but let's not forget who owns whom. Audi is VW's bitch, not the other way around.
-- Mike Smith
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<< The A5 platform has been in development for some time now, and AIUI was intended from the start to be used for both the new Golf/Jetta and the Audi A3. It's not an "Audi" platform, it's a VWAG corporate platform, to be used across a variety of models, including not only VW and Audi but also SEAT and Skoda as well. >>
This works out really well for both parties. It helps to cut costs during development (as both companies split the financial load) and helps to ensure a platform that can support a vareity of different compact coupes and sedans.
<< Audi is VW's bitch, not the other way around. >>
This has been a good relationship so far actually. But while I want the VWs to get nicer, more powerful, and more competant, what I don't want to see is them pushing so far into Audi territory that Audi no longer has anywhere to go. Let's hope the internal pressure VW is starting to put on forces Audi to get their shit togethor, and really put togethor an A4 that can beat the 3 series.
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