8-series

Dear all
I've read the various threads about which is the better car [840 vs 850 (ignoring the CSI)] and whilst these are no doubt informative I do
wonder whether they may be a little out-of-date.
So, I ask (previous owners?) that, with the benefit of hindsight, which really is the car to own!
The points I'm really interested in are as follows:
1 - economy: are they similar or radically different?
2 - robustness: which of the two engines is the more "bullet proof"
3 - total cost of ownership: are parts for one significantly more expensive than the other? What annual bill would I be looking at to cover maintenance?
4 - when buying a car, any particular things to check?
Many thanks in advance
Griff
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Griff wrote:

How could the info be out of date? They have nopt made this model for over 7 years now. Most of the information out there is still perfectly valid.

Let me preface by saying I'm not a previous owner. But I can still tell you that they will be different. 8 cylinder is pretty darn economical considerin the amount of power at your toes.

Neither, but the later years 8 cylinder is the most bulletproof. Earlier 8's suffered from Nikasil problem. 12 cylinders are 12 cylinders.

Yes. 12 cylinders are more expensive and harder to find parts. The 8 cyl engine was in the 5 and 7 series as well as the 8 series.
If I were looking for one, I'd try to find a later model ('96 - '97) 8 cylinder, after the engine size went from 4.0 to 4.4 liters. I'd also want the thing with a manual transmission, but you'll be hard pressed to find such an animal. You do occasionally see an odd 850i with a 6-speed, but never the 840i. Maybe it was not even available that way? Too bad, because that's what I would want.
Fred W
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I understand that the CSI is a manual, but the engine has so much torque that it continually wears out the clutch (at least the friction disk between the two plates). I don't know whether the non-CSI manuals suffer from similar wear.
Was the 12 cylinder engine not used in any other model (750 for example)?
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If that's true, you can blame the owner for abusing it. A clutch shouldn't wear twice as much when the engine has twice as much power -- from rest, the extra power should be applied after the clutch plates are engaged, not while they are engaging. Weight here will be more of a wear factor than engine power. At shift time, a properly matched shift does not wear the clutch plates at all, regardless of how much power is available.
Do a lot of mashed throttle drop clutch takeoffs and the extra power will indeed wear the clutch harder. Which is abuse. As is slipping the clutch on shifts, where extra power will again cause extra wear.
-Russ.
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I agree if the CSL clutch is "wearing out", then its due to driver abuse. The BMW 850CSL clutch is the "upgrade" for the E39 M5 and E52 Z8:
http://www.uucmotorwerks.com/flywheel/V8/index.htm
As the ad says, this clutch is setup to give "normal" lifespan comparable to standard BMW models, 50K-80K miles depending on driving style. If you're getting less mileage on your clutch than this, its due to driver abuse.....
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50K to 80k miles? I just swapped mine out 'cause the throwout bearing went -- 344,000km, could have put it back in but I had bought a kit anyway.
-Russ.
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anyway.
I second that. I have a '94 325i and I replaced the factory clutch at 210,000 miles, and I did it because I was tired of listening to the throw-out bearing howl its complaints everytime I depressed the pedal.
I'll accept the idea that the 8 Series and the 3 Series are not even remotely similar once you get behind the Roundelo on the hood, but I reject the notion that the standard is 50- to 80-thousand miles on a clutch.
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What kind of driving do you do? if its day after day of heavy metro traffic, I can see it wearing out faster than if you commuted though the countryside. When Im on the interstate on my motorcycle, I can cover over 100 miles without touching the clutch. Get in the city, and the clutch gets used every 20 feet
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traffic,
countryside.
every
Well that's fair, heavy stop and go -- if you literally stop -- wears the clutch no matter how careful you are.
A manual tranmission 850 is hardly a good choice of a daily commuter if your commute is truly that bad, however. Seems unlikely that so many of them live that sort of life that they all have a reputation of tossing clutches at 80Kmiles.
-Russ.
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They could be making the clutch pads out of a softer compound to give it greater grip in a smaller area.. Thats the only thing left I can think of.
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E52
its
bearing
pedal.
the
clutches
I guess that's possible. Perhaps an aftermarket clutch could fix that, but if they've just made it too small there may not be much that can be done. Still a gentle foot at first engagement and proper rev matching should extend clutch life significantly. You can actually get good fast starts from a car while barely slipping the clutch at all and stomping the gas after full engagement when a car has as much torque as that motor does.
-Russ.
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------030508010003050600060206 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
I've heard my mechanic repeatedly bitc$ and moan about the 850 v12. Say's its a piece of garbage.
This is coming from Steve Moran Motors...best dang Beemer shop I've ever been to. Its in Berkely, CA.
I was talking to one of the guys when an 850 came in with a blown motor and out of curiousity asking how they were, and how they held up, and he just sort of put his head down and said they're terrible.
I've got a six myself and have had my fair share of probs...but it seems the 850's just weren't designed to last.
My .01 Dru
Somebody wrote:

</pre> <blockquote type="cite"> <pre wrap="">I agree if the CSL clutch is "wearing out", then its due to driver abuse. The BMW 850CSL clutch is the "upgrade" for the E39 M5 and </pre> </blockquote> </blockquote> </blockquote> </blockquote> </blockquote> </blockquote> <pre wrap=""><!---->E52 </pre> <blockquote type="cite"> <blockquote type="cite"> <blockquote type="cite"> <blockquote type="cite"> <blockquote type="cite"> <blockquote type="cite"> <pre wrap="">Z8:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.uucmotorwerks.com/flywheel/V8/index.htm ">http://www.uucmotorwerks.com/flywheel/V8/index.htm </a>
As the ad says, this clutch is setup to give "normal" lifespan comparable to standard BMW models, 50K-80K miles depending on driving style. If you're getting less mileage on your clutch than this, </pre> </blockquote> </blockquote> </blockquote> </blockquote> </blockquote> </blockquote> <pre wrap=""><!---->its </pre> <blockquote type="cite"> <blockquote type="cite"> <blockquote type="cite"> <blockquote type="cite"> <blockquote type="cite"> <blockquote type="cite"> <pre wrap="">due to driver abuse.....
</pre> </blockquote> <pre wrap="">50K to 80k miles? I just swapped mine out 'cause the throwout </pre> </blockquote> </blockquote> </blockquote> </blockquote> </blockquote> <pre wrap=""><!---->bearing </pre> <blockquote type="cite"> <blockquote type="cite"> <blockquote type="cite"> <blockquote type="cite"> <blockquote type="cite"> <pre wrap="">went -- 344,000km, could have put it back in but I had bought a kit </pre> </blockquote> <pre wrap="">anyway. </pre> <pre wrap="">I second that. I have a '94 325i and I replaced the factory clutch at 210,000 miles, and I did it because I was tired of listening to the throw-out bearing howl its complaints everytime I depressed the </pre> </blockquote> </blockquote> </blockquote> </blockquote> <pre wrap=""><!---->pedal. </pre> <blockquote type="cite"> <blockquote type="cite"> <blockquote type="cite"> <blockquote type="cite"> <pre wrap="">I'll accept the idea that the 8 Series and the 3 Series are not even remotely similar once you get behind the Roundelo on the hood, but I reject the notion that the standard is 50- to 80-thousand miles on a clutch. </pre> </blockquote> <pre wrap="">What kind of driving do you do? if its day after day of heavy metro </pre> </blockquote> <pre wrap="">traffic, </pre> <blockquote type="cite"> <pre wrap="">I can see it wearing out faster than if you commuted though the </pre> </blockquote> <pre wrap="">countryside. </pre> <blockquote type="cite"> <pre wrap="">When Im on the interstate on my motorcycle, I can cover over 100 miles without touching the clutch. Get in the city, and the clutch gets used </pre> </blockquote> <pre wrap="">every </pre> <blockquote type="cite"> <pre wrap="">20 feet </pre> </blockquote> <pre wrap="">Well that's fair, heavy stop and go -- if you literally stop -- wears </pre> </blockquote> </blockquote> <pre wrap=""><!---->the </pre> <blockquote type="cite"> <blockquote type="cite"> <pre wrap="">clutch no matter how careful you are.
A manual tranmission 850 is hardly a good choice of a daily commuter if your commute is truly that bad, however. Seems unlikely that so many of them live that sort of life that they all have a reputation of tossing </pre> </blockquote> </blockquote> <pre wrap=""><!---->clutches </pre> <blockquote type="cite"> <blockquote type="cite"> <pre wrap="">at 80Kmiles.
-Russ.
</pre> </blockquote> <pre wrap="">They could be making the clutch pads out of a softer compound to give it greater grip in a smaller area.. Thats the only thing left I can think of. </pre> </blockquote> <pre wrap=""><!----> I guess that's possible. Perhaps an aftermarket clutch could fix that, but if they've just made it too small there may not be much that can be done. Still a gentle foot at first engagement and proper rev matching should extend clutch life significantly. You can actually get good fast starts from a car while barely slipping the clutch at all and stomping the gas after full engagement when a car has as much torque as that motor does.
-Russ.
</pre> </blockquote> </body> </html>
--------------030508010003050600060206--
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Griff wrote:

Yes it was, in much lower production volume.
-Fred W
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Agree, information here on the E31 8 series is some of the best you can find! For example, do a search for Paul Michael Brown's E31 Buyer's Guide. Its arguably the best info on 8 Series cars. Here's a link to part 1:
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.autos.bmw/browse_frm/thread/feb8bc8aeebf2b00/38d688eab7e2c1b3?q 1+buyer%27s+guide&rnum=2#38d688eab7e2c1b3
Now go do a search for part 2....
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