Cylinder bank numbering

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I agree that there is only one left and one right. The poster I was responding too seemed to think that the cylinders were numbered as from standing in front of the car and leaning over the grill.

I have to disapute this. As I sit here and consult my Motor Manual AND my Factory Shop Manual for my Jeep, it is clearly shown that the #1 cylinder is the front left.
I agree there are variances of numbering the odds all on the left and evens on the right (GM Style), and sequential numbering with 1 to 4 left and 5 to 8 right, (Ford Style) but the #1 is always the front left, and is always the front on an inline motor (either 4 or 6, or 8 for that matter -- yes, there was once an Inline 8). I am not aware of any motor that numbers the #1 on the front right. Please provide a cite if this is not accurate.

That would be an Inline 6. The V6 shares the Bank 1 and Bank 2 numbering conventions with the V8 motors.
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OK. Insert BMW in front of V8 in my above text. In fact, insert it in front of everything I said. Sorry, as this is a BMW group, and the question was BMW related, I didn't see the need to put the BMW part in. I have no interest, and no knowledge about other makes.
> I agree there are variances of numbering the odds all on the left and evens

#1 cylinder on a BMW V8 or a BMW V12 is the RIGHT front cylinder. Always, no exceptions.

Again, as BMW has never produced a V6, the thought of clarifying this never entered my head, but you are correct.
Thanks
Brett Anderson KMS

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That's okay, I was thinking that cylinder numbering convention was pretty universal, it did not occure to me that the metric system played a role in changing how the cylinders get numbered.

I'm good with that. I didn't know it, but ...

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Agreed for a vehicle., but AFAIA left and right of and engine always refers to when you're facing the pulley end, or front of the engine. Means there's no confusion when it comes to transverse mounted engines. Mike.
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That would be incorrect. The left side of the motor is on the left side of the car.
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Nope.The front, back, and sides of an engine is a constant, regardless of how the engine is mounted. In the case of a transversely mounted engine, some might refer to the left side of it, but if it is the output end, with the g/box etc, it is still the rear of the engine, even though it is on the left side of the car. Mike.
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Sorry, that is not always the case. The left side of the motor is on the left side of the car. IF the motor is mounted transverse, the "front" (pulley end) can be either left or right, so the reference is such that one must visualize the pulleys being on the front, then the left is the same as the left side of the car.
Maybe we are saying the same thing here. The left and right of the motor is not determined by where one is standing, it is the same as the car -- and assumes the motor is situated such that the pullies are at the front of the car, not mounted sideways as in a transverse engine.
The front of the engine is the end with the belts and pullies, the rear is the end with the bellhousing.
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You're making something which is basically very simple into something complicated. A layman might refer to say a noise, coming from the l/h side of the engine, but to an auto engineer, if it is a transversely mounted engine, it will mean from the front or the back of the engine. Dependant on which way it is mounted.

In that statement is where I see the error. The left and right of the car is not necessarily the same as the left and right of the engine. The left and right of an engine, is from a view facing the pulley end. The l/h side of the engine being on the same side as the viewers l/h side. OTOH the l/h side of the car is from a view facing forward, in the direction of travel, or from the drivers seat if you prefer. In the case of a front mounted inline engine, this means in fact, that from the drivers seat, the left and right side of the engine is actually the opposite to that of the car.
I know we all refer to something being on the l/h side of the engine. Meaning the l/h side from the drivers seat, and we all understand what is meant, but that side is actually the r/h side of the engine. It is important to remember that when manuals refer to the right and left side of an engine, especially in the case of an inline V8, as it means the right hand bank will be on the left hand side of the car. IOW on the r/h side when one is facing the pulley end, as I said earlier.
-- and

Which if you check back, is almost precisely what I said in my post of the 13th, which you said was incorrect. I'm not an auto engineer, but I'm sure most would agree that linking the left and the right of a car, with the true left and right of an engine, can only lead to confusion, which is what we have here. Best to keep the two separate IMO unless one is trying to explain things to a non-petrolhead. Mike.
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No professional manual I've ever read has referred to left and right as anything but from the driver's seat.
In the case of a transverse engine, they would refer to front and rear bank.
Admittedly, my experience with transverse engine equipped vehicle manuals is limited, but if there is an exception, it's probably a US thing. The rest of the world would get it correct, I'd bet.
Brett Anderson KMS
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Of a car certainly. When referring to parts of an engine, the sides are dictated by the engine itself. It's orientation in a car is irrelevant. The front always being the pulley end.

They may do for clarity with a specific car, but that doesn't allow for engines that are not fitted in cars. Could be on a bench, or be a static engine driving a generator, pump, or in a boat, etc etc. Having a standard nomenclature avoids the sort of confusion displayed by this discussion, as the front, left bank, or left side is the same for all engines, regardless of any outside factors..

AFAIK the std I refer to is used internationally. I suspect that most of any confusion is caused by those home mechanics who are not aware that there is a std, and because many specific car manuals are written for those same home mechanics, it's understandable if the writers take that into account. Mike.
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Then this is where YOUR error is.
Assume for a moment a single condition, the motor is mounted in the traditional way, as in a rear wheel drive, which all BMWs ARE rear wheel drive. The left side of the motor is on the left side of the car. Period. That's how it is, just like the sun comes up in the east regardless of standing above or below the equator.
Now, let's set the motor sideways as in a front wheel drive. The left of the motor (Bank 1) is relative to the engine pullies. The pullies "belong" on the front, so if the motor was oriented with the pullies at the front, the left side would be the side on the left side of the car.
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I agree. It is the l/h side of the engine as seen from the drivers seat, but that doesn't mean it's the l/h side of the engine, when an engine is viewed in isolation. The pulley end of an engine dictates which is left and right of that engine. It doesn't matter what make the car is. It is irrelevant to the argument.

Only if you are facing the rear of the engine. The accepted way of looking at an engine from a descriptive POV is when facing the front of the engine. For your idea to be correct with static industrial engines they would always have to be viewed as if standing at the rear, which is simply not the case. Mike.
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Mike G wrote:

Seems like it might be in the case of any air-cooled Porsche or VW as well as some other oddballs like the Renault Alpine and the rear-engined inline four in the RWD Simca of the mid-'60s. How about the FWD Cords that had front engines and gearboxes all ahead of the pulleys?
So, has anybody taken a look at any of those manuals to see if, indeed, the *right* side of the engine is on the *left* side of the car? -- C.R. Krieger (Wondering)
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Lets put it another way. On all the engines I know of, the ancilliaries are driven from one end of the crankshaft, usually via a pulley and belts. That end is the front of the engine. The other end, which outputs to a gearbox, generator, pump, WHY, is the rear of the engine. Facing the front of the engine, it's left side is the same as the viewers left side, and vice versa. That basic rule applies to all engines. Once that is accepted, it becomes obvious that how an engine is used or fitted, has no bearing on which end is the front and which are the left and right sides of that engine. Presumably on the Cord you mention, the pulleys are towards the rear of the car. Nevertheless, that is the front of the engine. The gearbox, drive etc, at the rear. Of the engine. Not the car. This way of describing an engine has probably been around for as long as engines have been made. It's a standard.

Forget about the left and right side of the car. That simply creates confusion. This is about engines. Not cars. Mike.
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Mike G wrote:

So your answer is, "No." That means my question still stands.
I'll be willing to "forget about" it when your answer to my question changes and you provide definitive verifiable information. I don't think that's too unreasonable. -- C.R. Krieger (STILL wondering)
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So your answer is, "No." That means my question still stands.
I'll be willing to "forget about" it when your answer to my question changes and you provide definitive verifiable information. I don't think that's too unreasonable.
No, but that information doesn't appear to be very easy to find. Possibly because manuals expect those using them to know. It's understandable that you are not prepared to accept my version without corroboration, but if you check one or two posts in this thread, there are one or two references to manuals which support that view. Such as that from Jack on the 15th. Quote.
BUT I offer this quote from the Bentley Manual for the e30.
"The inline engine is bolted to a bell housing on the transmission and is inclined toward the left side of the engine compartment. We all know that the BMW 3 series engines are inclined to the right, right?
End of quote.
And this from my own Bentley manual for the 5 series.
" On 8 cylinder engines, cylinder No 1 is at the front of the engine on the right-hand cylinder head"
Whilst that might be considered a little ambiguous, I can't see it meaning that if one faces the front of the car, it means the right hand cyl head is on your left.
As I said earlier, I don't expect you to believe me, but I would be prepared to put my money on being right. I love betting on certainties.:-) Mike.
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I hate to agree with Mike G on this one because I have always referred to the engine handedness as seem from the drivers seat, BUT I offer this quote from the Bentley Manual for the e30.
"The inline engine is bolted to a bell housing on the transmission and is inclined toward the left side of the engine compartment. We all know that the BMW 3 series engines are inclined to the right, right?
However, in spite of what Bentley's or Mike G think, I will still continue to refer to the left side of things in the popular interpretation in order to avoid propagating this rather pointless conversation.

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Hardly pointless. As you have pointed out, the Bentley manual differs from the popular interpretation, so it's much better if one knows what is meant when referring to it. And the conversation is pointless, simply because some would rather go by the 'popular interpretation' rather than use the correct one. One should know which bank and cyl the manual is referring to, when Bentley's refers to No 1 cyl being on the right bank of an M60 V8 engine. Mike.
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I'm more than happy with you doing that.
The truth may upset you, but you'll doubtless be happier in your newfound ostrich-head-in-the sand little world where you don't see or hear anyone bursting your bubbles.
*Now* you can put me in your kill file...
--
Dan.

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