e39 2002, should I keep it?

I drove an E36 for close to 250k miles and it was fine. I replaced it with another E36 that currently shows 130k miles, and it is fine. My kid drives an E46 with more miles than my car, and it is fine.

Bring that piece of crap to my house and dump it off, I'll take care of it for you.

wrote

That statement is simply not true. IME, US-built (well, Canada, but that's another discussion) have been far less reliable than my BMWs. Our Toyota cars (and truck) cost just as much to maintain as our BMWs.

Our '91 525i was just retired due to a wreck, at 200K miles. Original engine still getting 30+ mpg, original CLUTCH - try that on an American car. My '01 330xi has had it's cooling system replaced (as you note, they're weak) and has 125K miles on it. Nothing else has gone wrong.

FloydR

Oskar,

That sounds like an excellent idea. And next time I talk to BMW I'll remind them that they lost you to the used Japanese market. I bet that will get their knickers in a bunch.

in article snipped-for-privacy@79g2000hsk.googlegroups.com, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com at snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote on 6/30/08 7:50 PM:

My 2000 528i has 176K on it ... and I had to change the water pump about a year ago ... it only lasted 6 months for the next oil change ... and I got a warrenty change out of it ... had to pay for the labor.

If you look at the VIN number and download the history of the car (as it has only had BMW trained mechanics working on it as my bark yard mechanic days are over with this machine) ... there were two items that had to be replaced out of the factory within 50K miles or so. The other stuff is just fine, even the fuel pump (electric) is working great to my ears and experience.

I have recently had a Computer gremlin show up with transient electrical faults ... and the car science says that it has to be the ignition switch that is going out .. or my car was sabotaged in the wire loom by the last mechanice who worked the car ... as I have a big mouth about illegal aleins geting their Ramon Salcido on and doing a Selena to people here in the USA.

As for the Japanese ... go over to Japan, they all drive Mercedes and BMWs for durability and gas mileage.

I say get an electric car like a ZAP ... and use that short hauls around town and the home .. use the gas for long trips.

Plan two ... get bio-diesel ... the Europeans again are the best in regards to autos.

When I fill up my Ford 3/4 ton ... it is $100 for the biodiesel .. but ALL that money stays in the USA. So far Bubble Boy our Idiot in Charge has not sold off the biodiesel to the Grand Poohbah of DuBuy. Also 1 acre of algee ... will make 170,000 miles of biodiesel fuel or so I hear.

sumbuddie on da watchtower

:)

Radiator failure is common on the V-8s, not on the 6 cylinder models. Alternator failure isn't common on either. The suspension bush live depends on many things. Idler pulley life the same.

Well, I've pointed out that not all BMWs are the same and it's doubly so with Japanese cars. They certainly aren't all perfect.

You could extend the warranty?

There you go again...

And your mechanic knows everything about every car?

Get yourself a nice Honda. You and all those blue rinses can't be wrong.

Radiator failure in the 60-90K range is not uncommon on the V-8's. Much less so on the I-6's. The water pump is a weakness and probably should be replaced as a preventive measure prior to 90K (Mike Miller would say 60).

Never heard of an alternator going bad so early.

Pulley failures are rare below 100K.

The E39's have their issues. The cooling system (radiator, water pump) are a weakness, particularly in the V-8's. The instrument cluster and radio MID can loose pixels. The sunroof tilt arms are weak. And of course, there are those darn cupholders.

The preventive maintenance on these cars is fairly expensive, especially if you ignore factory recommendations (lifetime fill on differential, manual trans, power steering ... 100K on auto trans) and maintain it like it was going to last 250,000 miles.

Other occasional issues arise in the door vapor seals (if the sealant that holds them to the door panel loses its grip, you've got damp footwells). The leather is surface dyed and shows wear prematurely. The I-6's had a rash of bad coils that were replaced under recall/warranty.

By comparison, you can buy a Japanese transportation appliance from Toyota/Honda (or their upscale Lexus/Acura) and do little but change fluids and various filters for over 100K.

Brakes and tires last, or don't last, as a function of driving style. You can run through a set of PS2's in about 15K in a Corolla, too.

If you enjoy driving, the E39 is about the finest all-round sedan you can own. Great vehicle dynamics, comfort and luxury. If you're stuck in gridlock on the 91 Freeway, an Accord with a good sound system might make more sense.

R / John

Hi John, Since you seem to be the only one who didn't get all emotional with a knee-jerk response saying bmw is the best I think you're the most reasonable person here! I agree with you regarding the part about enjoying driving. In that regard the bmw is much better than the others. I'm just surprised at how much higher the costs are to maintain the joy! I guess these are cars are a lot like some women I'm sure we've all dealt with, their just high maintenance! (some guys like high maintenance women, some enjoy them until they complain too much and move on.)

I like to stick to facts.

- I'm a member here so I can see thereports, I can't paste here since they use graphics. But if you lookat luxury cars, 8 of the top 10 most reliable luxury cars areJapanese! Audi and Lincoln are the other 2. Mercedes and BMW are inthe poor catagory! These FACTS along with my experience with the e39 is how I'm coming up with the items I'm discussing. I'm not being emotional and zealous.

I just want to see what everyone else thinks in regards to this. I forgot to mention the door seals also went bad (dealer wanted $300 per door to fix the seals!). Things like door seals should NOT be an item you need to change every

60k miles! Neither should radiators, alternators, pulleys and suspension bushings! At 100k I'll accept it if the car was driven hard or it's in harsh climate (cold, snow, salt, etc).

That's all I'm saying. Please don't get emotional - use facts :)

Oskar

Hi John, Since you seem to be the only one who didn't get all emotional with a knee-jerk response saying bmw is the best I think you're the most reasonable person here! I agree with you regarding the part about enjoying driving. In that regard the bmw is much better than the others. I'm just surprised at how much higher the costs are to maintain the joy! I guess these are cars are a lot like some women I'm sure we've all dealt with, their just high maintenance! (some guys like high maintenance women, some enjoy them until they complain too much and move on.)

I put 150k miles on a '94 3 Series that I bought in '00 with 100k on the clock.

The car was totalled against the side of some sort of Buick that turned in front of me entering the Old Folks Neighborhood in my town. I replaced that car with another '94 3 Series convertible, but do not pile on the miles anymore. So, for the sake of discussion, in 8 years I have logged approximately 200k miles combined on two different cars. I have spent about $2000 on normal repairs, clutch, brakes, and odds-n-ends. On the first car, I did a bonehead move that caused an expensive repair, but that was only $2500 or so. So, $4500 in 200k miles is $0.0225 per mile, or about $565.00 per year, or under $50 per month. Take out the repair from the bonehead move on my part, and the car paid me to drive it. I have never in 45 years of driving had a car that cost less to own. And I bought my BMWs as a Used Car, and have no clue what happened to them before I bought them.

Go buy a Honda if you want, but don't do it because your BMW costs to much.

I like to stick to facts.

- I'm a member here so I can see thereports, I can't paste here since they use graphics. But if you lookat luxury cars, 8 of the top 10 most reliable luxury cars areJapanese! Audi and Lincoln are the other 2. Mercedes and BMW are inthe poor catagory! These FACTS along with my experience with the e39 is how I'm coming up with the items I'm discussing. I'm not being emotional and zealous.

I just want to see what everyone else thinks in regards to this. I forgot to mention the door seals also went bad (dealer wanted $300 per door to fix the seals!). Things like door seals should NOT be an item you need to change every

60k miles! Neither should radiators, alternators, pulleys and suspension bushings! At 100k I'll accept it if the car was driven hard or it's in harsh climate (cold, snow, salt, etc).

That's all I'm saying. Please don't get emotional - use facts :)

Oskar

wrote

There are a couple of things wrong with these statements. First, you say: "I've learned from experience..." That's not a FACT, nor is it valid to draw any conclusions from it. It is anecdotal evidence and immediately suspect (as are all the anecdotes related by we other posters.) You can't have it both ways: you say you believe in facts, but then try to elevate non-evidence to that status. Can't do it.

The other problems are your citations. Let's take the jdpower first. The study in that citation is for problems AT THE END OF THREE YEARS. Because correlation and causation aren't the same things, you *CANNOT* say that BMWs are worse *OVER THE LIFE OF THE CAR* than the other manufacturers'. It's probably true that the cars with fewer defects over three years may be better built, but that says almost *NOTHING* about what will happen in the future.

There have been many discussions about consumer reports and their rankings. I'm not going to repeat them other to say: Google for them, and to note that the major argument about their validity is that they don't *COMPLETELY* report *ALL* problems, since CR doesn't actually go out and poll *ALL* owners, only the owners that subscribe to CR. Because of that singular fact, their statistics are immediately suspect.

FloydR

Hi Floyd, Please correct me if I'm wrong but your logic is as follows: car has poor reliability for 1st 3 years of ownership, this DOESN'T mean that car will continue to be unreliable. Is this correct? That makes absolutely no sense!! Who in their right mind buys anything that gets all sorts of problems in the 1st 3 years of ownership and then tells themself, it's only the

1st 3 years of ownership - the future will be better!

Older bmw's were built better, newer ones are the problem. Also, FYI the consumer reports reliability reports go back 10 years!! Is 10 years of data enough to draw a conclusion on whether or not the model car you're looking at is reliable? This is where bmw's and most german cars show their ugly side - lots of problems.

Also, JD Powers reports go back about 12 years. Lexus is #1 for 12 years in a row if I recall correctly.

Oskar

Hi Floyd, Please correct me if I'm wrong but your logic is as follows: car has poor reliability for 1st 3 years of ownership, this DOESN'T mean that car will continue to be unreliable. Is this correct? That makes absolutely no sense!! Who in their right mind buys anything that gets all sorts of problems in the 1st 3 years of ownership and then tells themself, it's only the

1st 3 years of ownership - the future will be better!

Older bmw's were built better, newer ones are the problem. Also, FYI the consumer reports reliability reports go back 10 years!! Is 10 years of data enough to draw a conclusion on whether or not the model car you're looking at is reliable? This is where bmw's and most german cars show their ugly side - lots of problems.

Also, JD Powers reports go back about 12 years. Lexus is #1 for 12 years in a row if I recall correctly.

Oskar

Sorry for being off topic. I noticed that some call their cars "E39", etc. In the US, I haven't seen this. Is there some info or a chart that shows how the European and US model names/numbers relate? Many thanks in advance.

"Florida NRA SW" wrote

The nomenclature is used in the US as well Here's your chart:

Go to the bottom of the page and expand the "BMW road car timelines" (click on [show] on the right).

Cheers, Pete

"John Carrier" wrote

The radiator is also a weakness as it is plastic. You can buy an aftermarket radiator that is not plastic though that should last you a bit longer.

Pete

AFAIK the E number is the same for both US and european cars. Basically it's BMW's model designation for different body designs and series. The numbers following also usually refer to the series and engine size. Ie, all E39's are 5 series, and if followed by 5xx, the 5 is the series and the xx refers to the size of it's engine, which may not be it's actual size. The 523i actually has a 2.5 litre engine. Mike. (UK)

Hi Floyd, Please correct me if I'm wrong but your logic is as follows: car has poor reliability for 1st 3 years of ownership, this DOESN'T mean that car will continue to be unreliable. Is this correct? That makes absolutely no sense!!

--------------- Actually, if you understood statistics, particularly the terms causality and correlation, you would see that it makes sense. Now, I'm not saying there is *no* correlation, but that jdpower study is of little or no value for long-term reliability.

---------------- Who in their right mind buys anything that gets all sorts of problems in the 1st 3 years of ownership and then tells themself, it's only the

1st 3 years of ownership - the future will be better!

Older bmw's were built better, newer ones are the problem.

---------------- I've owned BMWs for 30 years. The old ones had many more engine problems than current ones. All current cars have more electrical problems than older cars, because there are more electronics.

---------------- Also, FYI the consumer reports reliability reports go back 10 years!! Is 10 years of data enough to draw a conclusion on whether or not the model car you're looking at is reliable?

------------------ No, because BMW changes cars every 7 years, and engines typically every 3-4 years, which totally blows any long term trend.

------------------ This is where bmw's and most german cars show their ugly side - lots of problems.

Also, JD Powers reports go back about 12 years. Lexus is #1 for 12 years in a row if I recall correctly.

Oskar

The 'E' numbers aren't country specific. Here's where to find out what cars they refer to :-

Err, when you post a one sided view expect to get replied to like for like.

If you'd done the most basic research before buying you'd have found BMW in general aren't the most reliable brand. They are bought by those who have different priorities. So your post gives the impression of being somewhat of a troll.

I thought I made that clear in my post. Much of the cooling system is plastic: Radiator upper and lower sections, some water pump impellers (now fixed IIRC), thermostat housing, etc. Zionsville makes a slick all-aluminum radiator and overflow tank ... it ain't cheap ... and you can also get it with an electric fan and shroud to replace the OEM ... quite expensive. There are some reports of the fan disintergrating as well. The plastic parts tend to get brittle over time and heat cycles and then cracks.

That said, the E39 is a very satisfying car on the road. But I do wish the folks in Munich would learn from the folks in Japan about designing longevity into the secondary systems in their vehicles.

R / John

If you look at the actual breakdown of problems, you'll find that most of the reported problems with the newer cars are relatively minor, and the vast majority of them have to do with insufficiently-debugged electronic systems.

While I am personally very annoyed at BMW for throwing all kinds of useless electronic gewgaws into every model now, and making it impossible to order them (in the US) without all this stuff, I don't think that should necessarily be the most important think you look at when you buy a car.

--scott