E60 M5

I've been out of town for a bit, so I don't know if it's been mentioned here already but I recently read in MT that in 2007 BMW will release a manual (6
speed I believe) M5 for the US market only. No place else in the world will get anything other the SMG. Apparently BMW still thinks the drivers from those markets where F1 is popular believe SMG is the cutting edge of driving enjoyment.
Apparently pressure from US dealers and a rather healthy write-in campaign, ala the M3 sedan of years ago, forced Munich to reevaluate the US market for M5. BMW doesn't always listen to customers, but there are times when they indeed do hear what the US market is saying.
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Yep, thats the rumour. However its also rumoured the engine will be remapped so as not to shaft the geabox and more important the V10 was developed and tuned with a 7 speed SMG in mind. Thats why it won't be out until 2007, if at all. BMW will need to rejig the engine output to what is probably going to be a development of the existing 6 speed box. IMHO a bit of a compromise, take the latest greatest V10 and match it to an older uprated box.
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No rumour. BMW confirmed to US mag.

Engines are always "remapped" for tranny variant. This isn't anything suspicious or special, nor does it mean lesser torque. BMW isn't going to deliver an M4.75 to the US. They kind of learned that lesson with the E36 M3.
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Sorry, I thought the US E46 M3 was 333 BHP at 7900rpm
Yes, engines are remapped but the M5 was not designed to have varying transmissions. It was designed for a 7 speed SMG, not a 6 speed manual. A 6 speed box would be vastly different to the 7 speed, the positions of gears 1 & 2 on the 7 speed are apparently in a different pattern to a normal and so it cannot be adapted to manual operation. Also (according to various sources) the torque is also too high for a manually operated clutch to maintain reasonable wear. Think how heavy the clutch is in a manual M3... then add another 157, sorry 167 ;-) , HP.
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wrote in message

Yes, it was.....as a result of the caterwauling at the E36 being 240 HP in US trim, while Euro trim was 321. They are not going to make that mistake again, particulalry in thier largest market.

How do you know? All BMW ever said was that the V10 and SMG were designed to be used together. That in and of itself doesn't translate to the car being designed for one, and one transmission only.
The fact that one year after releasing the SMG variant they will release the manual tranny model, implies this wasn't ever far from the scope of possibility and there was a very high level of contingency built into the engineering for such a car.

Apparently not. It was designed to work with a 7 speed SMG. whoch again, does not negate the possibility it was also designed to work with a manual. BMW engines are, if anything, elastic in a way most manufacturers engines are not.

Think a minute my friend. 369 lb-ft vs. 384 lb-ft. That's the difference between what the E39 M5 and E60 manual M5 will produce respectively. You still think there is some kind of clutch problem?

The clutch doesn't care about horsepower. It cares about torque. And it remains curious that you think an extra 15 lb-ft of torque is some great and prohibitive barrier to the E60 M5 having a manual transmission.
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wrote in message

I don't think its a problem that can't be overcome I just don't think it will happen without compromise. Hence the current E46 with 333 vs. 343 and the fact the US did not get the CSL but an M3 with a competition pack that was only brought out in Europe (although not the UK) to extend the M3s life as people were complaining about waiting for the E90.
Across virutally the whole range it looks like the US has had a "modified" version of the original due to legislation or demand. As for the E36, the 240 was the non-Evo car, the 321 was the M3 Evo. Both available in the UK, its just the 321 came out after the 240. Nothing unique to the US.
Well see. I just wouldn't pin my hopes on it, anyway, whats the problem with SMG? ;-)
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Once again, given that the torque difference is 15 lb-ft I fail to see what compromise is necessary.

Take the BHP and apply the correct divisor. Might as well make it apples to apples. The difference in the E46 is not the result of the same dynamic that created the difference in the E36.

I don't understand why you continue to refer to the M3. They have always dealt with those offerings differently than they have recent M5's. The E39 was same here and over there, as is the E60 SMG. There is no reason to think, or argue BMW's statement, that the E60 manual will be.

"unique"? Where in the world did you come up with that?
I said the US was a pissed market that our top was 240, while other markets were enjoying 320+. And because of that it is highly unlikely BMW will make a similar mistake. And that doesn't even consider the issue of offering 2 different M5 power levels in the US.

You might as well ask what's wrong with soccer, futbol or football :^) Cultural differences don't necessarily mean anything is wrong anywhere. If only all the world could learn that.
In the US, most performance car aficionados prefer a stick and an extra pedal (this may indeed change after a few generations though). I don't know that anyone finds something wrong with SMG per se, but rather enjoy a manual more. And if you're gonna spend 80 or 90 grand on a car, you'd rather it appealed to all your driving needs. The F1 connection (which BMW touted rather loudly) isn't an emotional one in the US like it is in other parts of the world. While most people here understand the elevated level of the technology, driving and performance evident in F1, they also find it impossibly boring as a competitive platform.
The bottom line is that BMW will sell more M5's in the US if they offer a stick & pedal. They'd be fruitcakes not to offer one with same power levels.....at least to BMWUSA.
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You inferred the US 46 was the same as the UK, its not, 10 BHP reduction dur to different cats to meet emmissions.

Because you implied that US spec cars were the same as Europe, why didn;t the US get a CSL...? Type approval.
They have always

BMWs statement?! Thats a new one on me and most of the M5 boards and "M" boards. If its a BMW statement then whats theis thread about. If they have said they are going to produce a manual M5 in 2007 for the US market then why ask?

You said that BMW only made a 240BHP M3 available in the US and that BMW made a mistake. Must have been global as the Evo was a development of the 240 for the rest of the world as well. i drove them back to back before changing from a 240 M3 to an Evo. Maybe a bit of a difference in launch dates (not sure) but its not as if the US was deprived, again, I suspect type approval.

Ahhh... "aficianados", we have many in the UK too. Fortunately most don't turn up for track days. You're right, if thats what the US market wants then thats what it will get. When? How? Compromised? We'll see... unless of course BMW have said they will produce an M5 with a manual box without compromise either in engine output or performance.
Tony In reverse order... M6 order (minimum deposit, just speculating in case It is as good as the M5) Deposit on M5, delivery September 2006 M3 E46-SMG (current) E36 M3 Evo Manual E36 M3 Manual 325i Manual 318i Manual
end of thread (for me)
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You are mixing ratings.
It's the same car, same engine (which was not the case with the E36) with the same performance levels, despite the slight hp disparity resulting from region dictates.

What I said was that BMW has learned from that mistake of the E36 M3 disparity and starting with the E39 M5 did spec similarly on both sides of the ocean. That's true, and will remain true for the E60 M5 according to BMW.
And I still don't understand why you think M3 marketing has anything to do with M5 marketing decisions, or portends that US M5 manual will be lowered powered than US/Euro M5 SMG.
Remember back when you (or was it the "boards") said the torque level would prevent BMW from matching a manual tranny to the car. You never did explain how and why the extra 15 lb-ft between the E39 output (manual car, as you know) and E60 output would be such a difficult issue.

Nope, it's because they understood that a no-frills BMW wasn't likely to sell well in the US. They were probably correct.

Who asked? I stated what I read.
As far as "boards" and the internet go: Just Google it and call it gospel.

BMW did not give America it's most powerful E36 M3. Plain and simple and fact. I don't care about a missing 5 or 6 horses because of cat requirements or ratings difference. I am talking about the 75+ horsepower difference between the most powerful US spec E36 M3 and most powerful Euro spec E36 M3.

They have.
But I am still waiting for your (or is it the "boards") reasoning for why an E39 can fit a manual and handle the torque, but the E60 cannot. You really think that 15 lb-ft is going to prohibit BMW from offering a fully powered M5 with pedal and stick? Is that really your reasoned opinion of why the manual E60 M5 will be "compromised"?

That's up to the driver I suppose. The manual model will certainly be lighter, but no human is going to shift gears as quickly as SMG. So ultimately it depends on whether or not the SMG is *that* much quicker to overcome the weight bias. But in the end that is not why many would would want it. I think North Americans who buy these kinds of cars simply like the action of clutch and stick more than they do paddle shifters and hydro couplings.
Daniel (in reverse order) Asics Kayanos (I didn't put a deposit down, I just bought 'em) Asics Evolutions (I trade off daily between the Evos and Kayanos) Asic Kayanos (the compromised US model vs. Euro Kayanos) Asics Nimbus IV Adidas Supernova And I drive a couple pedal & stick BMW's and an F350 Powerstroke. It has an auto tranny, kind of like your M3 :^)
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Daniel Arrepas wrote:

BMW explained it about a year ago. If you read the press releases and technical info, and talk to BMW engineers, relating to the twin-turbo 3-litre and 4-litre diesels (together representing much bigger sales than the M5) it will explain things. A 'box capable of handling more 500Nm, or 369 lb-ft reliably (US market here, reliability is most important) and 8,250 rpm doesn't exist which keeps the appropriate feel for the car - not at the kinds of costs which allow BMW to sell at the price you will pay.

Shades of E36 M3 LTW. That'll never happen again!

Because it wouldn't pay for it - I thought everyone knew this :)

Read the international press. But as you say, if 15 lb-ft is neither here nor there, you won't mind if BMW trims the torque output for the US manual version.
BTW Mercedes makes some of its diesels available with manual 'boxes, and *lowers* the torque outputs accordingly. AFAIK it's been doing this for a while now.
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So, you don't think developing a stronger manual makes sense? Just think, what cars they could fit it to....M5's, big diesels and the more powerful petrol cars surely coming down the pipeline in future years. Marketing is all about power these days. Given your scenario BMW will eventually be fitted with nothing but SMG or slushboxes, unless one wants nothing but an econo-motor.

Yes, it's just the way it goes here. I don't think we can even get a cloth option in the 3 series.

BMW AG *thought* Americans wouldn't pay for it (BMW NA knew better). How can you say people wouldn't pay for it, when no one got the chance? Seeing that they now want to offer a manual M5 to the US market only, and we will probably pay more for it than the SMG version, I'd say they have had a paradigm shift in their expectations for what the US will and will not pay for.
By the way, in the same manner they were wrong about the Lightweight and the Hatch, they are wrong about the diesel. Americans would eat them up if we get the good ones and if like Merc they do not put a premium on the diesel models. Once our fuel is up to snuff I'd love to see them here.

That's just a Usenet talking point. You must be proud :^)
What I am saying is that premising what BMW will do with their marquee car, on what they currently have on the market is nonsense.

Are you implying that because Merc does this with their cars, BMW will find it acceptable to do with their new M5?
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TonyK wrote:

Hunh? I thought this was well documented by now. The 240 bhp M3 (earlier and later was unique to the US market, although introduced to Canada shortly after). Nowhere other than North America was the 240 bhp version available; the earlier variety (from 1992/3) had 286 bhp until 1995; like the NA-only engine, it was also developed from the M50 but revved quite a bit higher.
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Do you pay more, or less for a curious clutch, vs a normal inanimate one?
-Russ.
:-)
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Daniel Arrepas wrote:

You mean, all the other ones?
It's ironic that BMW will make a proper, manual M5 for a large market where 80+% of the cars are sold with automatic gearboxes. Although as BMW currently does not have a manual gearbox capable of dealing with more than about 370 lb-ft, the motor will probably loose a few pounds-feet, as the cost of engineering a new manual from scratch will be prohibitive for that kind of volume (not to mention the costs of "federalisation").
FWIW the M3 was only available with SMG in many markets, so there are plenty of M3 owners out there - including in Australia, host of the opening F1 race for many years - who think that BMW has already gone down this road...
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Now THAT would be stupid, and most unlikely. M5 owners will not want to compromise anything, never mind torque. I don't think it would fly.
Then again, maybe their F1 experience with SMG made developing SMG for the E60 simplier that a manual box.

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But not 80% of peformance cars that offer manual boxes.
What is ironic is that a market where most cars are produced with only auto boxes, is the market that cared enough to cause BMW to rethink the tranny.

I tend to agree with you. It would be nonsensical for BMW to release any manual M5 that doesn't share power output with the SMG versions. Just imagine: US market forces BMW to offer manual box, but then accepts lower torque........ain't gonna happen. Nor do I think it is difficult for them to provide the appropriate manual tranny. These things are outsourced anyway, and it is entirely likely they had a tranny ready, or one that could be readied in time.
But I have no doubt the manual version will cost more than the autobox/SMG.
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Daniel Arrepas wrote:

But the point is that they *don't*. The beefiest manual in BMW's range handles 369 lb-ft; there are several cars made by BMW that produce more than that (diesels as well as the M5), and none of them are available with a regular manual 'box specifically because there is currently no gearbox available which can handle the torque and doesn't feel like a gearbox out of a truck. "These things" are indeed outsourced but that doesn't mean they're low-cost enough to just bolt on for one market. I would suspect that the E60 M5's manual, if/when it does appear, will be a beefed-up version of the old 'box. This probably means it will be clunkier...
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How do you know they don't? Because they haven't fitted one to a current car? Man, if that's your premise then the E60 M5 won't have SMG that can handle the torque either.
It surprises me that you are so certain this manual M5 wasn't always a contingency planned and prepared for.
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