headlights on all day

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DAS
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Pioneer started the development of the DVD before Philips and Sony joined in. It was a consortium which agreed the final standard.
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Dave Plowman snipped-for-privacy@davenoise.co.uk London SW
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Fred W wrote:

You're wrong.
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dizzy wrote:

Gee thanks.
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Fred W wrote:

Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard 108, Canada Motor Vehicle Safety Standard 108, and ECE Regulation 48 all require front position lamps ("parking lamps" in North America, "city lights" colloquially mostly by North Americans talking about European cars). Ergo, these lamps are required all over the world.

The lamps you describe are not called "running lights" anywhere in the world. They are referred to as "front position lamps" in international ECE regulations, and "parking lamps" in North American regulations. They are required to remain illuminated with headlamps for the reason you state (vehicle position and width indication in the event of a burned out headlamp).

Incorrect. The maximum permissible axial intensity for DRLs anywhere in the world is 7,000 candela, for North American high-beam DRLs. The MINIMUM allowable axial intensity for high beam headlamps anywhere in the world is 20,000 candela, for the very weakest type of headlamps (those equipped with HB1/9004 bulbs in North America; those equipped with R2 non-halogen bulbs in ECE countries).

Incorrect. Regardless of the presence, absence or degree of discomfort due to glare, there is ALWAYS reduction in visual acuity due to glare.

You are again confusing glare with conspicuity. They are not the same. By your logic, ALL vehicle lamps would have to be painfully glaring in order to be effective --- turn signals, brake lights, etc.

Your doubt notwithstanding, ECE Regulation 87 (Daytime Running Lamps for Motor Vehicles) and ECE Regulation 48 (Installation and Wiring of Lighting and Signalling Devices) do not permit the use of high beams as DRLs, at any intensity level. ECE regulations are in force virtually everywhere in the world except North America. QED.
You may want to spend some time on Wikipedia at the articles entitled "Headlamp", "Automotive Lighting", and "Daytime Running Lamp". You can probably get a great many of your misunderstandings and incorrect conclusions cleared up with just those three articles. If that's not to your liking, then I recommend spending a couple of weeks' worth of 9-5 days at the UMTRI library in Ann Arbor, MI.
DS
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Side lights in the UK. Parking lights used to be a separate single bulb device mounted about the middle of the car with a clear lens to the front, red to the back. Some clipped on to the driver's door window. They were needed in any towns without street lighting - or more usually when it was switched off after a certain time at night. Very few if any these days, though.
The more modern German version which allows just one front and tail light for overnight parking etc would be legal in the UK as a parking light, but not all UK cars are so fitted.
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Dave Plowman snipped-for-privacy@davenoise.co.uk London SW
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Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Obsolete term that has been replaced in the most current versions of the UK regulations with "front position lamps". However, colloquial usage of "sidelights" to refer to the front position (US "parking") and rear position (US "tail") lamps is still common in the UK.
The UK "sidelight" terminology arose exactly as you describe, from the earlier devices that were permanently or temporarily mounted on the side of the car. They created a big terminology problem when side*marker* lights came along -- almost as big as the "driving lamp" problem.
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Yeal like central heating the last 1/3 will get their soon.
I remember those things.
Richard, expat.
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On Sun, 01 Oct 2006 20:54:33 -0400, Fred W

There are various levels of getting one's attention. If you really wanted to get my attention, use the highbeams undimmed as running lights.
DRLs do not have to be obnoxious, they merely have to be seen.
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Fred W wrote:

I don't understand. What good is getting my attention if all I do is to quit using my mirrors?
Passing isn't very safe because of your actions. Well, to be honest it's because of my reaction to your action. But your action almost mandates my reaction which puts the responsibility on your shoulders. (I'm talking about the moral responsibility since I'm not an expert in the legal field.)
BTW, I wont look into my mirrors for the same reason I wont look into the sun.
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Fred W wrote:

They are on the newest 3er in Europe, and will be in North America, too, soon.

As has been pointed out to you, "city lights" = parking lamps = front position lamps, and they are mandatory on all motor vehicles under all worldwide regulations.

Incorrect. They are supposed to be *conspicuous*. Not the same.
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Fred W wrote:

Aren't. It's robustly demonstrated in all the world's DRL studies that most of the safety benefit from DRLs is in reduction of *angular* collisions with pedestrians, cyclists and other vehicles -- not in head-on or near-head-on collisions. It is essentially impossible to produce a lamp that gives good high beam performance at full voltage, AND can be run at reduced intensity such that it produces a wide enough cone of illumination to give significant improvements in angular conspicuity without producing far too much glare on axis. High-beam DRLs tend to illuminate at the maximum allowable intensities on axis (excessive glare) but at or near the minimum allowable intensities laterally off-axis (= insufficient angular conspicuity, therefore minimal actual safety performance benefit). In addition, high-beam DRLs share the disadvantages of all headlamp-based DRLs: They consume so much power that their use is akin to opening the refrigerator door, pulling up a chair and using the fridge light to read a book, and they are too often improperly used instead of full-voltage headlamps after dark, because they create the appearance of a light beam in front of the car -- drivers and cops often can't tell the difference, or don't care. Come up to Canada sometime and see for yourself! This use of headlamp-based DRLs after dark creates various unsafe situations: Cars unlit from the sides and rear, cars producing much too much glare for other road users and too much backdazzle in bad weather, etc.
Low-beam DRLs have the energy-inefficiency problem, as well as the conundrum that a good low-beam light distribution is opposite what is needed for a good DRL light distribution.
And, there is the bulb life problem with all headlamp-based DRLs. The effective decrease in lifespan pushes makers to use long-life bulbs, which give reduced luminance and poorer beam focus, resulting in diminished headlamp performance after dark.
The best DRLs are functionally-specific ones. The second-best ones are the front turn signals burned full time.
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Daniel J. Stern wrote:

OK, I see what you are saying. But have any cars been mass produced with functionally specific DRLs? I am not aware of any. Or any that have used the front turn signals either for that matter. That would seem to be a best solution (without adding much cost to the car) if that is what is actually needed.
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Fred W wrote:

In the North American market at the moment:
-Chevrolet and GMC full-size pickup trucks since '99 -Chevrolet and GMC midsize pickups and derivatives since '01 or so -High-end Audis -Hummers -Volvos with BiXenon headlamps
There are also many such vehicles in the rest-of-world ECE market, and there will soon be very many more, as DRLs compliant with ECE R87 will become mandatory across Europe in 2010.

In the whole North American market unless otherwise noted:
-Chevrolet and GMC full-size vans since 2003 -Chrysler minivans from 1996-2000 (std. Canada, optional US) -Chrysler LeBaron & Imperial, 1990-1993 (Canada) -Saturn Ion and other Saturn models -Corvette C5 and C6 -Cadillac (all or most current models) -Lincoln Zephyr (might be Canada only) -Toyota trucks & SUVs (various models, might be Canada only) -Ford Probe, 1990-end of production (Canada) -Mazda Miata, 1990-1998 (std Canada, optional US)
Turn signal DRLs are not legal outside North America (ECE R87 requires them to emit white light).
And more I'm dysremembering right now
There is an inexpensive module available to activate front turn signal DRLs on most any vehicle.
DS
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Daniel J. Stern wrote:

Interesting. I figured there had to be a catch somewhere to why the German manufactures were joining the DRL crowd. I assume separate designated DRLs will be required, not just headlights on 24/7.

- GM's F-body '97-

Glad to see you're back. I was beginning to give up on you, Daniel. ;-)

Ulf
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Ulf wrote:

Very simple: COST! High beam headlamps aren't frequently used, so there's less impact on the effective useful life of a device a driver might be unhappy with if it were to last a shorter time than he expected (ask any VW Beetle owner how he likes having to replace low beam headlamp bulbs every other month). Also, with high beam DRLs, there's no need to worry about turn signal intensity.

Well, high beam DRLs don't work very well (too much intensity straight ahead, not enough intensity out to the sides), but fog lamps are not legal as DRLs in the US, only in Canada. Low beams don't make very good DRLs at all. If one is constrained to using only the lighting equipment on a non-DRL vehicle, without adding any new lighting devices, then the front turn signal DRL is definitely the best pick, all things considered.
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Thanks Dan, it's nice to see some authoritative responses on usenet.
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Richard Sexton wrote:

I agree. It appears I have been make all kinds of incorrect statements. I'll just shut up now...
I only wish Dan would frequent this newsgroup more often.
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Fred W wrote:

*shock*
Usenet has changed a LOT since I left, as it seems!
Thanks for your comment,
DS
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Fred W wrote:

LOL. You should have listened to the more educated on the subject. :-)

Why do you think I x-posted the thread to sci.engr.lighting...

Ulf
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