I don't like electric assist stearing.

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Missed the start of this but I have just test driven a 2006 E65 7 Series. The steering is very light but positive. At low speeds it's a kin to Jaguar XJ but at higher speeds it does stiffen up slightly and is nice but going from my E38 to the E65 takes getting used to and moving back to the large (by comparison) steering wheel of the E38 and heavier steering makes me want to go back to the dealer and say "I'll take it".
However, there is a little matter of "where do I get the £40K from..................
Sir Hugh of Bognor
The difference between men and boys is the price of their toys. Intelligence is not knowing the answer but knowing where and how to find it!
Hugh Gundersen snipped-for-privacy@h-gee.co.uk Bognor Regis, W.Sussex, England, UK
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BMW of course stuck with steering boxes on their larger cars long after the rest of the world went to R&P. Something to do with our US cousins not liking too positive steering on this sort of vehicle, IIRC.

Tell me about it. ;-)
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*He's not dead - he's electroencephalographically challenged

Dave Plowman snipped-for-privacy@davenoise.co.uk London SW
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Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I recall that Mercedes held out even longer.
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Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

More like; They wanted to jam a big V8 lump in the engine compartment and couldn't manage to fit a steering rack in there too. A RB steering box is tiny by comparison and the tie rods, arms and links can be made to go all over the place to clear the engine.
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An surprisingly, the RB in my 540 works quite well. Very crisp steering, handles like a dream. Not as crisp or nimble as my M3, but you wouldn't expect it to be.
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All over the place describes the steering response, too.
Strangely I've got another make not dissimilar in size to a 5 Series which was also available with 4, 6 and eight cylinder engines. Diesel too. But with R&P steering and designed in the '70s. I'm not quite sure what there is about a small V-8 that would make fitting R&P steering any more difficult than with a six.
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Dave Plowman snipped-for-privacy@davenoise.co.uk London SW
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Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Yes. My experience with my '94 E34 was it was pretty loosie goosie compared to my '95 E36. Of course in addition to RB vs R&P I'm comparing 3's and 5's. Probably not a fair comparison. The one E39 6 cylinder (R&P) that I drove seemed to have nice tight steering. But it was almost new.

Me either, but thats the story I heard. Hey, I read it on the internet, so it must be true... ;-)
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I have an E46 M3 (euro) and my 130k mile E38 V8 doesn't steer *all* that much worse to the point that I enter into a corner and think "woah!" Sure it won't do the high speed rough stuff with quite as much confidence but it's certainly not comedy cornering like a volvo.
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But the type of steering should have little to do with the cornering ability - that's down to the suspension geometry. It's the steering 'feel' that changes. Generally, R&P lets you feel the road surface better - and some simply don't like this. It's much more noticeable on small cars with unassisted steering, though.
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Dave Plowman snipped-for-privacy@davenoise.co.uk London SW
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And should stay like that unlike RB steering where the box can wear as can all those extra ball joints, etc. The E39 makes perhaps the best comparison - especially early US iron block sixes where the weight is close to the V-8

On most vehicles the rack runs under the engine and there's no intrinsic reason for the crank throws of one to be greater than the other so it's down to sump design.
I'd certainly like an explanation of why the E39 used different systems apart from the one I gave earlier.
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Dave Plowman snipped-for-privacy@davenoise.co.uk London SW
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JRE wrote:

Exactly. So the premium option (after first ditching the bling-bling staggered tire setup) is to increase the rear stabilizer bar. That way you can dcrease understeer *and* reduce body roll at the same time!!
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Albeit on a non-BMW, I added a larger front anti-roll bar and it reduced the understeer. The body roll had been causing the front end's geometry to become less than optimum and the new bar kept more tyre in contact with the road. Whether that would work with the Z4 I dunno but the "bigger fronts always cause more understeer" folk should probably add an "in general" in there somewhere.
If I were the OP I'd be putting on some Eibachs and new dampers. BMW suspension isn't always great from the factory for ride or handling. I did that on my E36 and coupled with decent tyres would out corner pretty much anything out there including my M3 and certainly any Mini.
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grinder wrote:

Considering what he says: Yes, increasing the size of both the front and rear roll bars (aka stabilizer bars, sway bars, etc.) will reduce body lean. However it will not improve understeer unless the rear sway bar is increased more than the front.
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ADJUSTABLE antiroll bars. Not all bars *are* adjustable. In fact, most AREN'T. You simply stated that you were putting on a much larger one in front and a somewhat larger one in the rear. The net effect of doing this with NONADJUSTABLE bars is to enhance understeer. You MAY be able to adjust the relative balance of this with adjustable bars - and that's what Dinan is selling. Are you comfortable with crawling under your car to make those adjustments while testing or are you going to have to haul it back to a tech to do it every time?
You still haven't presented the engineers with that list, have you? Why not? Afraid to discover we aren't all idiots here?

In the right circumstances, the right bars can help. But simply slapping on a set without the slightest clue of how they work or what effect they will have is a foolish waste of money. You will ultimately end up with an ill-handling pig and a lot lighter wallet. If you're going to buy Dinan's stuff, you'd better plan on buying ALL OF IT. You aren't yet educated enough to get a satisfactory result doing it piecemeal. You would do well to avail yourself of your local BMW CCA chapter's experts to fill in your knowledge gaps. -- C.R. Krieger
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wrote:

Must be why I included the Dinan link.
Are you comfortable with crawling

Done it before. Will do it again.

Yep. They agree with me.
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grinder wrote:

You have to be kidding. You asked the engineers at Dinan if putting a larger (and yes larger is stiffer) roll bar on the front and a smaller (yes softer) roll bar on the back would reduce understeer and they said YES?
Are you perhaps confusing a salesperson for an engineer?
That is total nonsense.
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They said the bigger sway bar goes on the front (maybe the bigger sway bar is softer). As for adjustments they said each has three holes, based on experience they said they set the initial adjustment in the center hole and have not had any problems in the past or cars being returned for additional adjustments.
They also recommended change tires, camber plates, sway bars as the most economical sequence to correct the understeer.
Now I would like you to NOT worry about it any further. It's o.k. Everything is o.k. It's over. Find somebody else's car to obsess over.
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What a strange fellow. You start a thread, talk rubbish, then feel got at.
Next time try talking to the mirror.
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* I like you. You remind me of when I was young and stupid

Dave Plowman snipped-for-privacy@davenoise.co.uk London SW
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I think he's new. He should soon learn that there's lot of people on here keen just to keep arguments going when really people should have better things to do. Me included ;-)
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adder1969 wrote:

No there's not!
;-)
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