Re: Braking in New Handbrake shoes and Disks

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Sorry, I have done all of those things. And I do them with out resorting to using the handbrake. I just don't understand the problem, I have no trouble
drving my car in these condidions. I have to admit, I seldom find myslef in these situations, except that the local supermarket driveway is a relatively steep hill. But, I have no problem whenever I do find myself in the situations you describe. Sorry that my life is so simple.

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If you're saying you live in a flat part of the world, I'm not surprised you find the handbrake ok.
--
*Filthy stinking rich -- well, two out of three ain't bad

Dave Plowman snipped-for-privacy@davenoise.co.uk London SW
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For some strange "cultural" reason people here in the US are very adverse to using the hand brake. (They even call it the parking brake. Sheesh.)
My own wife (American) freaks out when I used it to hold her car on the ramp to move out of the underground garage in our building. She feels more comfortable if I hold the car using the clutch! It doesn't make sense.
Then there were my grad school roommates not being too fond on me using the handbrake to park the car at an angle when we got a lot of snow around...
--
Ignasi.
'90 325is
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Handbrake turns. :-) I can do these in a deserted wet carpark with two fingers on my other car, but nothing on the E39. And it's not down to the DSC, either.
--
*Also too, never, ever use repetitive redundancies *

Dave Plowman snipped-for-privacy@davenoise.co.uk London SW
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wrote:

I hold my car with the BRAKES. I take my foot off the brake and place it on the gas, and go. What's the big deal?
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It is not a good method and it doesn't work in all circumstances, like extreme or slippery slopes.
--
Ignasi.
'90 325is
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Jeff, you forgot something - you don't HAVE a manual transmission 2-ton car that develops over 300 lb-ft at 3000 rpm.
Actually, I wasn't saying anything about my life being less simple because of the need to use the handbrake - it's actually SIMPLER, because of the handbrake.
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Yes I do. Well, I don't know what the weight is, but the trans is a 5 spd. I also drive a Jeep with a manual trans, and I stall it on VERY steep hills, and I have never used the manual brake as a hill holder. Ever. I am not even sure the manual brake on my Jeep works, but I don't care that it works or not, I never use it.

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Isn't the "manual brake" in a Jeep a footbrake?
So what is the 5-speed manual that you say is an equivalent 2-ton car?
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The "manual brake" on the Jeep is most certainly foot operated to set it, and has a lever to pull to release it.
I don't recall the weight discussion that you started. I said I have a manual transmission in my BMW, and that I never use the hand brake as a hill holder. You suggested that because I never use the hand brake then I must be driving an automatic. Not only to I not drive an automatic on the street, I also do not drive an automatic offroad. No matter where I do not drive an automatic, I do not use the hand brake as a hill holder.
BTW, The Parking Brake in the BMW is well suited for this activity, I just don't use it. The Jeep's parking brake is not well suited for this, but I suspect that is more a function of my particular modified Jeep than it is of the brake itself - the release lever is in a very cramped location next to the roll cage.
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The point isn't the configuration of the brake, the point is that I never use any brake other than the one operated by the brake pedal to hold my car on a hill.

Not a 540 specifically, but my father was in car business when I was learning to drive, and I have driven just about every American Muscle Car that ever came out of Detroit, and I have never found a case where I had to use the parking brakes to hold the car in place while I was changing state from stationary to being in motion. Only once in my life has my vehicle rolled back and into the car behind, and in this case the car behind was within 3 inches of me.
I played with using the parking brake to hold a car, and I attempted to show my daughter the technique as an alternative to the method I actually use, and my method works better for me and her than using the parking brake as a hill holder.

My mistake, you said I don't have a two ton car with a manual transmission, I read that to mean you must have though that I drive an automatic. I do have a two ton car with a manual transmission, and I have owned some with 300 hp. I don't see hp as an issue here. Indeed, hp would be an advantage where one opted to not use the parking brake as a hill holder.

Fine. Bring yours over and I'll drive it.

I can always shift into N and free up the clutch foot to work the brake, so it is silly to suggest that it is impossible. It might not be easy, and it might take talent, but it aint impossible. I obviously HAVE the talent because I can work the brakes and clutch to keep my car where it belongs already.
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I'm amazed such practices are allowed in your driving test. Using the handbrake as a 'hill' holder' on a manual is near universally the way taught round the world as the safest way - or at least it is for all I've asked. Perhaps readers of this group from other countries might comment? I'm not saying alternative methods can be developed - as with many things after passing the test = but this doesn't make them the safest way for all.
--
*Never put off until tomorrow what you can avoid altogether *

Dave Plowman snipped-for-privacy@davenoise.co.uk London SW
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I'll enter the fray as a newbie to the group - have an '05 330Ci on the ship coming to the West Coast of U.S.
I've never used hand brake as a hill holder. Am 62, license since 15. Driven everything from MG's, Jags, Jeeps, Buicks, almost you name. I've never so much as nudge a vehicle behind me. I know this is only an anecdotal data point.
Perhaps, the hand brake business is easier for those just learning to drive and so the "approved" method for some license exams?
Oh, should add I'm not a flatlander. At present reside in hilly Seattle, WA. Driven many, many times in San Francisco, which also is known for its hills. I typically get well beyond 100K miles before any clutch work. Last car, and Audi Quattro, had 185K miles on the clock when clutch was replaced. Disk was still fine, it was the "fingers", essentially its pressure plate release that went bad.
HTH
    - Jon
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Before the days of ECU controlled idle speed, you'd stall most cars - well certainly something like an MG - on a steep hill if the idle speed was set correctly buy holding it on the clutch. Unless you 'heel and towed' it to increase the idle speed. Which to me seemed like hard work - given you'd a convenient hand operated brake that would easily hold the car on near any hill.
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Dave Plowman snipped-for-privacy@davenoise.co.uk London SW
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I should have been clearer. I NEVER hold a car on a hill with the clutch, only the brake pedal. When it's time to go it's just a matter of knowing when your clutch take up begins, moderating the throttle, and letting go the brakes.     - Jon
On Wed, 16 Mar 2005, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

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Jon Blake wrote:

Sorry Jon, but I don't see how you can "...moderate the throttle and THEN let go of the brakes".
In a manual, your left foot is normally only on the clutch pedal or not engaged. Your right foot would be on the throttle or the brake pedal unless as Dave says, you "heel and toe" - but you can't do that with most cars let alone Jeeps and Buicks. There are some "racers" who also left-foot brake but I somehow doubt you'd go to that extent with a Buick or Jeep and in any case, if your left foot is off the clutch and on the brake, you won't be able to moderate the throttle effectively because the clutch is fully released and you'll stall the engine if you try to feather the throttle at the speeds you need to affect a slow hill start.
The problem with not using the handbrake is that there is always some roll-back caused by the time lag between your right foot leaving the brake pedal to apply the throttle. With a heavy car on a steep hill, the rollback can be a few inches if you're not fast enough. Not everyone is - that's why the Brits fail people who don't use the handbrake - it's the sensible and safe thing to do. Everything else is bravura.
What kind of Buick was it that had a manual transmission?
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For which you need three feet for the car to be totally under control. Or a means of operating two pedals with one foot - which isn't always possible on every vehicle.
--
*The sooner you fall behind, the more time you'll have to catch up *

Dave Plowman snipped-for-privacy@davenoise.co.uk London SW
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I've yet to have the car towed after starting on a hill. ;-)
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
<snip>

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Heh heh - the dreaded spool cheekier at work again...
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Dave Plowman snipped-for-privacy@davenoise.co.uk London SW
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I grew up and learned to drive in Barcelona, Spain. The canonical way to start in an uphill is using the handbrake as well, although many people don't use it with varying success. My own mother, not the adventurous type at all when it comes to driving, religiously uses the handbrake method to get in motion in the many really steep streets around their place in the city.
As I mentioned before, I've been living in the US for a while and people here don't know how to use their handbrake, Even in places like San Francisco where it works well. The fact that most cars are automatics is largely the explanation, IMHO.
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'90 325is
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