Re: What is the root of this BMW design flaw in all 3,5,7 series BMW trunk wiring looms?

On Sat, 16 Mar 2013 09:52:43 -0700, jim beam wrote as underneath my scribble :

Interesting post Jim - do you have any approx. info on milage brackets on failures for transmission and other major cost BMW components? C+

Reply to
Charlie+
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You're probably expecting me to argue with you, but I'm not going to. I admit to being one of those people to whom the three most important things about a car are power, handling, and braking - so I like BMWs. (although the stock brake pads suck unless you like refinishing your wheels every couple years.) Other people don't care quite so much and consider "adequate" handling to be acceptable; for them, a BMW is just too much of a PITA to run so they buy something else. (although current ride hasn't cost me anything but maintenance and an oil filter housing gasket - knock on wood.)

And if you want to talk about s**te window regulators - I actually had an A4 chassis GTI for a while. Yes, the one with the plastic doodad that was guaranteed to break. I was understanding when I read that their supplier had deviated from the spec, but was angry when the dealership said that VWoA wouldn't let them fix both windows when I brought it in for the first one... bastards... but I digress...

nate

Reply to
Nate Nagel

300 HP from a 3.0 liter six - and likely as much tuning potential as the vaunted Toyota Supra - is pretty phenomenal in my book.

I would never advise anyone to buy a German car with an automatic transmission. (and you know that BMW don't actually make the transmissions correct? at least in the E9x 3-series I think the 325 autos are made by GM and the 330/335 autos are ZF-built.) Some things never change, the E28 5-series would destroy its automatic if you let it engage a driving gear, then shifted back to neutral, then revved the engine. (also a ZF box IIRC.) There's an easy solution to that problem though; learn to drive a 3-pedal car, or if you want a luxury car that your mom will enjoy driving, buy something other than a BMW. (although actually my own mom would still probably enjoy driving a BMW, as both her GTI and Miata are stickshifts.)

And as for "planned obsolescence" - you don't think that Ford, GM, and Chrysler don't deliberately revise overengineered parts?

Technically, you are correct, but in practice - it works phenomenally well. (and actually the rear suspension is a multi-link with shocks, not a strut type suspension.)

Again, it may be cheap, but it works.

Would you call a '67 Corvette with a 427/4-speed "junk" because it is not technologically advanced? I guarantee you it's still fast by modern standards, and fun to drive - and that, at the end of the day, is what matters, not whether a particular component is the most expensive, theoretically elegant part possible or not.

Hmm, I see more older Bimmers on the road than I do GM, Ford, etc. (I still see a surprisingly large number of E36 3-series and occasionally even older ones - I actually saw a 2002 on Thursday - probably the only manufacturers that I see *more* 80's era cars still running around would be Honda, Toyota, and/or VW and one would ASSume that that's because they sold more of them.

nate

Reply to
Nate Nagel

Yes. This is the point that JB doesn't seem to get, nor does he seem capable of understanding *why* it makes you smile.

Quite true, and my impression is that German cars are actually better than either US or Japanese cars in this respect (as in, if maintained they will actually last *longer.*) I don't know if that is true of the ones being currently made, but it certainly was 20 years ago.

nate

Reply to
Nate Nagel

yeah, after i've replaced every single component three times over, including all the stuff that should never break or wear out, the car works just great!

*) I don't know if that is true of the

there are plenty of 30+ year old bmw's out there. and plenty of 0-10 yo's. but almost nothing in between. that is by design. see above.

Reply to
jim beam

please don't top post, just snip.

this was back in the 80's and my prof was saying target was 100-120k miles. that's not to say it's current target, but i know several bmw owners who have had sudden failures at the low end of that range.

his job wasn't to just fix it for a certain mileage though, it was to solve the math on design life so a given target could be achieved. [it was a function of the cog tooth root tip radius.] with that solution, any mileage could be chosen. modern atomic-scale finite element analysis and cnc cutting tools have probably refined his model considerably since then.

Reply to
jim beam

that's only 100hp/liter. honda routinely had production vehicles at

120. non-turbo.

uh, you know that bmw /spec/ their transmission to their contractor, correct???

nate nate nate, when will you ever learn to read? i specifically stated that bmw's /method/ was pioneering but you didn't read that.

everybody else has been having their crap /wear out/ since the 50's and customers hate it. bmw's "genius" was sudden failure that took the customer unawares, /and/ presented them with a huge bill that makes the majority give up on the vehicle and buy a new one.

we'll come to fronts in a moment, but did you not read what i said about rears??? [rhetorical]

yeah, a wheel barrow works. particularly when you have tires 30% wider than a comparable vehicle that has camber control.

macpherson is garbage. by definition. go out to any parking lot and look at the inside tire of any macpherson vehicle parked with steering angled. look at the camber. look at the percentage of tire left on the pavement. /that/ is a fundamental problem that can't be solved.

macpherson is adequate for the straight-ahead and delightfully cheap for manufacturers. and that's where the story ends.

driveling excuses.

again, you can't read. you see OLD bmw's and you see modern bmw's, but you see nothing in between. the old stuff was that brief period when they had the engineering right but bmw's financials were in the crapper. then in came the mba's, so their engineering focus changed. the results are right there on the road in front of you every single day.

Reply to
jim beam

That's also stock. A simple flash tune (e.g. Cobb) or piggyback (BMS JuiceBox) can get you to 350-375 easily; more with a larger intercooler and freer-flowing cats/downpipes. Tony Vargas just dynoed a car on 91 octane pump gas with "full bolt ons" (generally, that means intake, exhaust, and intercooler and possibly a larger oil cooler as well) and a set of larger turbos but no internal engine work at 575 wheel HP. That sure sounds "phenomenal" to me, and reminiscent of what was being done with Supras 10 years ago or so - and keep in mind that tuners have only had since 2007 to work on the N54 engine. I suspect that there's more to be had (and in fact there are people getting more power out of them using methanol injection.)

I'm sure that BMW knows that there is more potential in that engine but they likely don't want the x35is a) competing with the M-cars or b) making so much power that they start to have internal engine part warranty claims at an unacceptable rate. (because, let's be honest, the types of people that buy 500+ HP cars tend to want to use that power on a regular basis.)

Of course, but my point is, that just like headlamps, German mfgrs. seem to punish Americans by making their automatics as shitty as possible. Stick with stickshift or DSG and you'll be fine. I'm in no way excusing the German slushboxes, but their shittiness has not been a secret for the last 30+ years.

You just perfectly described why I drive German cars and *not* Hondas.

Actually BMW tire sizes are pretty narrow comparatively, 225s on the front of a vehicle that curbs around 3400? And that's the M-sport package. BMW's tire choices are a good example of one of the instances where they have made questionable choices however; the Bridgestone run-flats do appear to have been made from actual rocks, without actually providing superior tread life.

Another thing you're not considering is that a strut-type front suspension allows room for things like big v-engines in the front of the car (remember, the current M3 uses a 4.7 liter overhead cam V-8,) and is simpler and may very well weigh less than a comparable SLA design. these are all things that must be considered when you're looking at a car designed for performance first.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not slagging Honda for using a SLA suspension - far from it - but there are several ways to peel a feline. Honda chose one way and makes some very nice handling cars (albeit FWD.) BMW and Porsche chose another and also make some very nice handling cars (but you can criticize Porsche for sticking with hanging the big heavy bits out behind the rear axle, but I suspect that that is in large part due to the Porsche faithful not accepting anything else - look at the relative failure of the 928 for example - just like we probably won't see a Harley-Davidson with anything other than a v-twin in our lifetimes.)

Hmm. Doesn't seem to hurt any of the top competitors in DTM, BTCC, etc. etc. etc. How far are the wheels generally turned in high-G cornering maneuvers, anyway? And if you'd ever owned a Bimmer you would know that any tire wear problems generally experienced are NOT in the front but in the rear, which has an "acceptable" suspension design according to you but since BMW's alignment specs have aggressive camber for better handling the rears tend to wear the snot out of the insides of the tires when the car is driven non-aggressively.

Finally, if you hate struts so much, why are you constantly slagging the Germans, who nobody can deny build beautiful handling cars (and I have never driven a car that had as nice steering feel as my old E28 chassis

535i, I suppose that that is unacceptable though because it used a recirc ball steering box which is "outdated" compared to modern R&P?) and yet I haven't yet seen you criticize Ford for the execrable Twin-I-Beam front end which was unmitigated garbage and arguably inferior to a simple straight axle, and was used pretty much unchanged save for a swap from kingpins to ball joints (a step backward, IMHO) through the mid-late 90's!

It's not an excuse, customers don't care about such things generally. What they do care about is handling and ride. If it is provided by means of transverse leaf springs and using the driveshafts as suspension links, nobody gives a crap so long as it works well.

I suppose given the choice between, say, a BMW E30 M3 and a SLA Honda Civic, in similar condition, you would pick the Civic because it has a more sophisticated suspension design, EVEN THOUGH THE BIMMER IS BETTER IN EVERY RESPECT when it comes to what matters to the driver?

Did you miss the bit where the BMW 3-series has made C&D's 10 best list for over 20 consecutive years now? And also the bit where the new Accord made this year's list as well, *despite* having the struts that you hate so much?

Where I live Bimmers seem to be one of the most popular cars (along with Toyota Camrys and various SUVs,) and I see a whole range of them on the road. The very early 3-series cars seem to have mostly disappeared, as well as most of the cars that predate the 3/5/6/7/8xx naming convention, but then again, I did see another 2002 coupe while out and about this morning. If you're looking for any particular design of 3-series however, save for the E30, you're likely to spot one within 10 minutes or so simply by driving around and looking. I probably see more E46 and E36 than I do E9x or F30s.

nate

Reply to
Nate Nagel

Goes to show what you know. -----

- gpsman

Reply to
gpsman

he's starry eyed because he's used to that p.o.s. jeep or his employer's g.m. carp. with that as a comparison basis, i'm sure the bmw is fantastic.

Reply to
jim beam

This isn't an 'argument'; it's merely a discussion. Everything you said and everything I said was true.

The E39 that I own handles those three with aplomb!

The stock front pads are Jurid, with the rears being Textar, both with an FF friction & fade coefficient. They work well enough, although Akebono GG friction ratings are often used as replacement.

I use the Axxis/PBR FF pads, which dust the same color as the wheels, so you don't see the unsightly darker-colored dust of the stock Jurid pads.

The OFH often leaks on the BMW M54 engine; but luckily it's an inexpensive part, albeit a bit of a pain to DIY.

Overall, I think we're in agreement, so there's really no need for any argument. One thing about bimmer owners, they KNOW their cars!

Reply to
Bimmer Owner

I can't help think of nitwits who think buying an X make/model and/or adding "performance" components improves their driving skill.

I'm reminded of a mud run I attended many years ago. All the big dogs lost by a large margin to a HS girl driving a stock 2WD F-150.

My friends had to hustle/half carry me out of there because I was laughing so hard and loud an ass kicking seemed imminent. -----

- gpsman

Reply to
gpsman

true dat! double true dat!

for the bmw humorists, i had a guy come up to me in a parking lot one time and start enthusing about my crx. "best car i ever owned - i really regret selling it" he said all misty eyed. we chatted some more, then he left. he drove away in a new m5. true story.

Reply to
jim beam

??? dude, brake dust is /two/ components:

  1. pad.
  2. disk.

if your wheels aren't being stained, it's because #2 is not present, or at least, not to the extent that "bmw spec" [high silica] pads have.

i don't understand this equation - y'all are starry eyed about something that is completely unreliable /and/ expensive to maintain. sure, it's better than a buick, but really?

if you like fixing stuff and are serious about rwd's with handling, race-prep a miata. if you want something that handles from new, buy an elise.

don't pay bmw's "advertising beats engineering" tax.

Reply to
jim beam

Wow, it's amazing the way you managed to leap to conclusions there.

There's driving skills, and then there's the capabilities of the vehicle being driven, and when and where did *anyone* ever say that the two were related in any way?

nate

Reply to
Nate Nagel

I could actually say the same about my '84 Scirocco.

But you'd hate it because it not only uses struts but a twist beam in the rear.

nate

Reply to
Nate Nagel

N54, but same principle.

I've not found it to be that unreliable (touch wood.) There *are* a lot of electronics to fail, and that scares me a little, but that's true of every modern car with a few notable exceptions worth having and none of mine have failed yet (good lord I hope I don't regret posting that.) So far I've paid for fluid changes, aforementioned OFH gasket, and a bunch of random upgrades (euro light switch, spare tire kit, winter wheels and tires, alarm, sat tuner, etc.) Despite the reputation for being hard to work on I was able to install the alarm and sat tuner in an afternoon in the driveway following excellent directions easily available online, and without any unusual tools that a moderately DIY-oriented enthusiast is unlikely to have. Really, no harder than changing a car stereo in any garden-variety car. The biggest challenge to DIY work is actually lifting the car to get underneath due to the very limited ground clearance, but that goes with the territory of pretty much any decent handling car, and if it doesn't, an enthusiast is likely to change that :)

Neither the Miata nor the Elise has a back seat or a usable trunk.

I think having a 3er for a daily and a Miata or Elise for weekend fun would be a great combination. My mom actually has a Miata for a "fun car" and loves it (as do I) but I don't have the space/funds to justify another vehicle purchase.

And where is all this BMW advertising? I must not pay attention to the same media that you do, BMW seems to really not advertise at all compared to other manufactureres; people buy them because of reputation/previous experience/glowing reviews in magazines and on enthusiast-oriented TV programming.

nate

Reply to
Nate Nagel

What's amazing is your imbecilic vagueness and inability to snip what is irrelevant to your response (and operate a kill file, again).

How could they be unrelated...?

You seem to imply that you believe you could perform just as well as a licensed NASCAR driver if you only had access to a vehicle with the same capabilities. -----

- gpsman

Reply to
gpsman

did they drive away in a buick??? [rhetorical]

you're right about that at least!

Reply to
jim beam

what cognative dissonance trip are you on this morning? you catalog a bunch of completely unacceptable failures one day, then here you are the next saying it's not unreliable! are you not taking your meds?

dude, what is wrong with you this morning????

can we change who shows up with meaningless drivel on r.a.t?

ah, got it - you idea of a car that "handles" is an extended cab pickup. got it.

you sure won't have funds if you're driving a bmw.

nate, i'm sure that if you're nice to your mom, she'll let you out of the basement occasionally. you can have the tv on while she hoses you down and changes your depends.

Reply to
jim beam

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