To those who took offense at American cars being referred to as CRAP...

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have a look at what the top US carmakers sell you to protect yourself, a nice big Durango maybe??? I think not. Ford F150?? even worse! so how can they be as deadly as a neon???
because they are crap! No offense to Americans, but the cars are not competitive in fuel economy or safety.
http://www.bimmer.info/forum/showthread.php?t 576&highlight=crash
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No offense to Canadians either, just because you are an asshole. So, what brand of Canadian car.... oh that's right, there are none.
SharkmanBMW wrote:

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you obviously are an ignorant idiot
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here you go, see for yourself! http://www.bimmer.info/forum/showthread.php?t 576&highlight=crash
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Guys, whoa! settle down.
I would say that watching the videos is very close to useless without seeing the data retrieved from the vehicle and especially, the dummy. Although it looks horrible when a car crumples, part of that is expending energy that will be energy your body doesn't have to deal with. I'm not saying I enjoyed watching the 2001 F150, shit, I own a 2000 model and it made me sick. The 2001 F150 is w/o a doubt, a horrible performer from the video, shit, the seat comes forward and smashes the damn driver! That one doesn't take a rocket scientist to decipher but I do believe most of them do. Think about it this way, a totally rigid car delivers 100% of the impact to the occupants. From there you can easily comprehend that it's not just about the visual, it's much more.
I would say that the full, tabulated results by the NHTSA would be much more useful than ooohhhing and aahhhhing over videos.
Just my 2 cents.
Chris

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yes sir, and on the topic of a totally rigid car.... here you go! this is crazy, lol! http://www.wimp.com/wall/
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and for the record, regardless of where I live, I am on my 3rd and 4th BMWs at the moment, I learned after driving American crap when i was younger.
So if i was American, nothing would be different, I don't see why you need to be bash a country, I bashed carmakers, NOT the USA, there is a big difference in the real world.
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Wow, this is veeeery important for this issue... How about just saying it; American cars with some exceptions (like Voyager, Cherokee, Corvette...) can be sold only on north American market. They are slow, they have extremely poor fuel economy, their suspension sucks, you name it, and no major market such as European or Japanese doesn't have them. Only two good thing; they are cheap and can stand solid mileage (an that's no wonder when you have 4,0 V8 with 200 hp :-D ) Are you so stupid to find this fact offensive?
-- It's a good idea to drive a little Japanese/Ford/whatever shopping machine once a year to remind yourself why you're in a BMW for the rest of the year. by John Burns. '98 328i coupe t.
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Weird wrote:

Well, technically true. There are no Canadian car *brands*, but there are multiple factory plants in Canada where they make those "shitty American cars", or part for the same.
--
-Fred W

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"SharkmanBMW" wrote

They're thinking how to be competitive in fuel economy:
http://www.newtechspy.com/articles06/hydraulichybrid.html
Now, let's see if they can keep those hydraulic cylinders from going flying during a crash. :)
Pete
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Or much else
twenty years ago I visited the west coast with my boss.
we got to stay over a weekend, so decided to hire a car to do some sight seeing in particular Mt. St. Helens. We went to a major car hire company. At the time my car was a BMW 735i with a 5 speed manual gearbox. I won't bore a BMW group with its qualities, but once I got it up to 145mph on the clock (with a yank in the passenger seat) and it was steady as a rock.
My boss wanted something a little sporty so we were offered two cars: -
a Pontiac Firebird 2 door coupe (IIRC), which I could not even fit into to drive
and
a Pontiac Grand Am 3.0 a car so poor that a brief description is warranted: -
engine - 3 litre V6 injection, with lots of pipework etc. under the bonnet. Its output was pathetic and that was before we clogged the air filters with volcanic dust. Thirsty.
gearbox - 3 speed automatic - nuf said
handling - appalling - on winding roads you had to open the window and listen for the tyres squealing to have any idea whether it was holding on (or more likely not).
Brakes - worked.
Comfort - two doors rear seats were a joke.
Probably one of the worst cars I have ever driven.
You can still buy one of these in the USA for ~$1500 second hand. Aside of resale I would not have paid this much for one then, when just about any car then built in the EU was better on every front.
US cars have improved over two decades, but the only ones I have seen marketed in the UK are the Neon (poor) and the PT cruiser (not much better). No wonder GM and Ford are in a spin in the USA.
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Is this really so? Ford invented the Macpherson strut suspension and it appeared on some UK Fords in '50. If you meant IRS, you might be right - but a solid rear axle doesn't cause shimmy. Nor does a beam front axle either, come to that.
--
*Arkansas State Motto: Don't Ask, Don't Tell, Don't Laugh.

Dave Plowman snipped-for-privacy@davenoise.co.uk London SW
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London SW

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Not as undesirable as early swing axle or semi trailing arm designs of IRS - if that beam axle is well located.

Same comment applies. A beam axle on crude cart springs is a different matter.
--
*Out of my mind. Back in five minutes.

Dave Plowman snipped-for-privacy@davenoise.co.uk London SW
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R. Mark Clayton wrote:

Bullshit.
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Spot on. That guy speaks from total ignorance. Utterly clueless...and no doubt proud of it.

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GRL wrote:

That's why I stopped responding to him...
--
-Fred W

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On Mon, 20 Feb 2006 07:46:00 -0500, Fred W

Hell, the original post was probably crossposted to as many different groups as he has access to. That being said, the idea of his post was never to have any kind of a dialogue. Just another idiot out to cause a ruckus and then sit back and watch...
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Yes, we call them TROLLS. There are a lot of other cars made in Europe that were not included in this test and to say "Look at American Crap" is pure ignorance. Cars need to be tested in price ranges as well.
On another point...The insurance industry has no business crash testing cars as they only tell you what they want you to hear. Example- Peugeot 505 was rated the worst car ever tested (that was before the F-150). It really motivated me to sell my Peugeot's until I went over all of the crash data. Even though the door frame bent I found that bodily injury was far less than the car with the highest rating. How can this be? Then it hit me; the insurance industry was focused on cars that were re-buildable as being top performers, and those that were not rebuildable got poor marks even though the bodily injury was low.
I am not saying to distrust what they do in the testing, I just think that all of the data needs to be addressed instead of selective information.
MO, DieInterim
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wrote:

I trust the insurance industry completely. After all, wouldn't you stay in business year after year if you lost BILLIONS every year. I also trust the US government and that asshole that somehow got re-elected to a position he was never elected to in the first place. Now, before I get jumped on, I am an American citizen that currently resides in the United States of the Offended. I deal with all the bullshit here and am just waiting for the next opportunity to go to the polls and say it's NOT okay.
Anyhow, you are right, the insurance companies will tell you what they want you to hear. If it affects thier business in any way they will try to steer your decisions. They have thier dirty little fingers deep in the government (probably all over the world) and have way too much power to control decisions. Between them and the energy industry, I'm not sure who's worse...
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