Tire Pressure Monitor

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G wrote

Typical Cadillac attitude. "I bought a Cadillac, therefore everything must be done for free, forever and ever.....amen!"
We deal with those types of customers all day long unfortunately. Of course, the tiniest leak that "must" be fixed under warranty is quickly ignored when the Cadillac owner becomes responsible for it. As is everything else.
Ian
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nodding in agreement...simular to many vette owners that ive dealt with that feel they must be 1st in line no matter when they drive in. always was entertaining! not a cut to cadi owners but the line has been kinda pushed to middle class of luxury cars with the onslaught of asian lux. cars....it was nice to see them come out with a p/u tho. helps keep lincoln honest.......AIMHO, kjun
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Since I started this debate, here's my 2 cents. The dealer in question has done all waranty work, maintance, and repairs on both my CTS and Escalade. This amounts to thousands of dollars in revenue over the past few years. I don't have the attitude that everything should be free; the dealer's in business (like me) to make money and I have no problem paying for labor and parts. However, as previous posts prove, this is a simple 2 minute job that doesn't require any parts. Considering how much business they had from me, 2 minutes of a tech's time, without charge, seems to be a reasonable request.

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This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------070102090806020506020407 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Of course it is Luke.. I was the Assistant Service Manager for Mitchell Motors Cadlliac for a few years, and if I heard that from one of my Service Writers, he would of gotten reprimanded. In my experience Cadlliac owners in general are very loyal to their Dealerships for the desirable Customer Pay jobs if the warranty work period was satisfactory...
Now I don't know about the new customer base sport sedan owners and Lux SUV's. But the Joe that owned a Coupe/Sedan DeVille, Eldorado was very very loyal if they got treated right under the warranty period.
Luke wrote:

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they don't make any money selling the things -- just servicing them. I'm convinced GM deliberately designs systems so complicated they can force you to come back to dealers to have them serviced. Owners can't even perform routine maintenance anymore because it requires special tools or filters/parts available only at the dealer. Really disgusting and one reason I've stopped having anything done except an occasional oil change because I don't keep the things past warranty anyhow.
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puked:

Are you serious? That's not true in the least. -- lab~rat >:-) Do you want polite or do you want sincere?
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God did the same thing when he made man, every time my model breaks I have to take it to a doctor to have it repaired. All I can do is feed it and use it, never been able to do any surgery on it myself. Can't even buy a manual for this particular model, what was He thinking, that He was GM?
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Windcat wrote:

Right! That's certainly what we do at our dealership...hang around waiting for do things for free so "you might" buy another car. People like you won't be happy anywhere anyways....so you might just as well bugger off.

How very ethical of you! Just pass your un-maintained vehicle onto the next poor shmuck eh?
Ian
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Humm, and what "routine maintenance" requiring special tools are you talking about? Oil change? Nope. Air filter check? Nope. Bet you haven't even read the owners manual. What a yutz!
Windcat wrote:

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Hey guys. People in here have been voicing their opinions and disagreeing for a long, long time without having to call each other names. It's been pretty nice that way.

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Luke wrote:

A tire pressure sensing system that needs recalibration with tire changes seems like a lot of bother and expense. A much simpler, less expensive and more reliable option would be a good tire pressure gauge stored on the glove compartment.
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while driving do I not see tires that are under inflated, so having that gage in the compartment does little good unless used. With runflat tires the side walls are stiff enough that you can't visually "gage" the tire pressure. Since I like a car to run at peak tune, that includes tire pressure, it is a simple matter to check them while running down the road. I check my tire pressure nearly every time I drive the car. It took very little time to read the correct way to recalibrate the sensors and it takes less time that checking the pressure with a gage. On a trip through the Rockies I hit a sharp stone very hard and was able to bring up the tire pressure and watch it until I was where I could get safely off the road and out of traffic to check for damage. At that point the cost of the pressure sensors was cheap to say the least.
Another system I see coming on line looks even better. It senses the rotating radius of all of the tires, ties into the braking and traction control system, and if it varies enough it will bring up a "low tire pressure" message on your DIC. By utilizing the systems already in place and working with the programming it brings about a very good and inexpensive warning system.
I miss my Cadillacs - ;-(
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Dad wrote:

How often do I check tire pressure - every time I fill up. And I'm able to run the low profile wide tread tires on my car at least 10,000 miles longer than I would otherwise. And I rotate them regularly.

True, but the same can be said for a pressure monitoring system. For many drivers it will probably end up being another check engine light to be ignored.

Anyone who thinks they can visually estimate 4 or 5 psi pressure loss with a regular radial tire is kidding themselves. Sure you can tell if a tire is at 20 psi when it should be at 35, but by then the damage is done. A simple pressure guage is apparently far more reliable that the built-in pressure sensing systems. How does the pressure monitoring system warn the average owner that it needs to be recalibrated to give a meaningful reading. That is a serious limitation for most drivers.

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when they fill up, but then I've only been driving for 50+ years. How wide is wide? The 285-35-19 that I run will go way past the estimated mileage as they show on the tread depth right now for 11,000 and I don't rotate. Even when I worked in a service station in the early sixties we had to ask if the customer wanted his tires checked. Very few checked the tires and just a few had you check the oil.

a tire pressure gage, get real. Very hard to ignore and it don't shut off by it's self.

Didn't even suggest that anyone could judge the actual pressure in a regular radial tire by it's looks, my reason for making that statement is because the runflats don't show any signs of low pressure at all, regardless of the amount. I see that you have had no experience with a runflat tire and therefore no experience with a pressure monitoring system.

How do you know that? As far as the accuracy of a hand held tire gage, forget it. If you take most of them out and check the same tire with different gages of the same make they will give you varied readings. The only thing you know is that the pressure is similar in all four tires by using one gage.

Actually the Corvette system seldom needs "recalibrating" if ever, but it throws a warning if the readings vary considerably between all four tires. The pressure seems to be monitored very well as checked by an industrial dial pressure gage with a tire chuck attached, not the $1.97 trash that most people use. Of the 4 Corvettes I've had with pressure monitors I've recalibrated them maybe a half dozen time, and all of those were when I was mounting racing tires on different rims with diffrent sensors and/or switching back to street tires. After the first time they would set themselves and not require recalibration because they went to the same location.
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Dad wrote:

Pressure checking is not so rare at least in my area.

Nope, my point is that a pressure warning system is a tool that could be useful, but will be ignored by many and will become little more than another expensive automated gadget t ignore or figure out how to switch off. A pressure gauge will be as effective an automated warning system for most drivers. And it will be a whole lot cheaper.

Unfortunately there are a lot of drivers who have conditioned themselves to routinely ignore the check engine and engine warning lamps as well as the text messages that scroll across the dashboard display. Like the many people who continue to run out of gas after the needle has passed into the orange area AND the red warning light has gone on.

Quoting you: ...are stiff enough you can't visually "gage" the tire pressure. It is not possible to visually gauge tire pressure with any reliability under any circumstance period.

Really now. If handheld gauges are that inaccurate then how useful or accurate can we expect a pressure sensing system to be. Remember, it is nothing more than analog sensors rigged to a digital display. And how can a driver rely on such a system if it goes out of calibration with no warning. I've checked several different handheld gauges and they are plenty close enough for maintaining reasonably accurate pressure.

Your experience does not appear to be the same as the caddy owner - strange isn't it. Come to think of it I have never had a handheld analog gauge go out of calibration.

That's an "unusual" way of dealing with life, wouldn't you say?
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to remove cheaply from any car that is built with it in the system. I assume that you will not buy a car after the required pressure sensors are in the 2010 models? Actually seems like your point is that you're cheap and the government can't change that by mandating pressure sensors. By the way they are also trying to get the runflats mandatory are you going to resist that also or just the pressure sensors?

light, what happens next? You are still suggesting these people will use a tire gage over reacting to a warning light?

question here, can you see that the rim is very close to the ground or the tire has a much larger bulge in the side, (runflat not included), than do the others on the vehicle? Actually you can see it, you can hear it, you can feel it, and last but not least, you can smell them when they go flat, all of this is under certain conditions of course.

between a electronic component and its sensor? My assumption is that if a system goes out with no warning that it is the same as any other aspect of life, you deal with it. Why do you think they go out without warning, I don't remember that being the issue? Nothing was said about that, only when his tires were rotated and the revenue enhancement guru kicked in.

All of our analog gages were calibrated on a regular basis and they do/did fail, but then I dealt with precision gages and if you do it would surprise me. My direct reference was to the Corvette as it is cross posted, I would expect you to realize that. In reality the Cadillac owner was talking about them wanting an added cost figure for resetting his sensors. My first reply was how to do it yourself. You are the one that is fixated on the usefulness/value of the pressure monitoring system.

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Dad wrote:

Nope, didn't say that did I would stop buying cars now did I. Truly an asinine statement for you to make wasn't it.
I was also stating the obvious - that there are a lot of drivers who routinely ignore important information fed to them via the dashboard. Just because the latest warning system has to do with tires is no reason to believe their behaviour will change one whit.

What happens next should be obvious. The engine stops. I can't tell you the last time I ran out of gas, but there are plenty of people who do. As I've restated several times now those people will ignore useful information provided them no matter the subject. I can't tell you why...maybe unlike you and me they don't appreciate the consequences of ignoring warning messages. Will they use a tire pressure gauge if it is in the glove compartment - most likely not. But having an unused analog gauge in the glove compartment is a whole lot cheaper than an unused analog tire pressure monitoring system installed in the car.

Unfortunately it is the thumpty thump or the loss of steering control will be the first warning sign most drivers will heed. Wish driver behaviour was more defensive, but in my experience most drivers react to the consequences of problems rather than anticipating them.

If you don't believe what should be obvious, just try a blind test.

It would appear to be your choice in responsible lifestyle given that it appeared at the end of your post.

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You really need to read a little better John, it wasn't a statement, it was a question. Is that the problem, someone, heaven forbid, questioned you supreme knowledge?

drivers?
manner you think they should. Thankfully I drive where most driver do a pretty fair job of avoiding problems. For those other drivers I have the unique ability to forsee problems that could be an incident and avoid them. Sort of like low tires and poor visability are indicators that I shouldn't be there when the accident happens.

Obvious like tire pressure monitoring systems do work?

I see you didn't care to answer how accurate the tire pressure monitoring systems can be, must be out of your knowledge base.

compartment, but never use them for what they were intended. Get the point? You assume allot. Try to deal in facts, it's enlightening.

and will stop here for me.
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Dad wrote:

Change where there is a defined benefit is a good thing. However the TPMS is a perfect example of an expensive gee-whiz technology with at best a minimal benefit.

Not sure what you are saying here.....a confusing statement at best.

I think you are saying that your driving skills are pretty good in this paragraph...??? Right???

Not sure what your point is with this statement.

I have no doubt that a tire pressure monitoring system can be accurate as accurate as a good hand held gauge. But if it goes out of calibration then it is not a reliable tool especially for less than sophisticated drivers. A TPMS does not offer much improvement in tire safety over a hand held guage for virtually all drivers in all driving situations. As I remember the TPMS became an issue after a very few drivers of inherently unstable vehicles (SUVs) had blowouts and they reacted the wrong way. A TPMS won't solve that problem.
I've got to ask about knowlege bases. That's a pretty fancy buzzword that just rolls off the tongue of many consultants in these parts. So tell me what a knowlege base looks like and how one can be inside or outside of one.

The fact is that you closed your message with that phrase. Apparently you give little thought to the meaning of words, since in your words: Never Use Them For What They Were Intended. Words are just so much attention getting filler.

I'm not sure this was an issue...

Don't know, are you looking for a scholarship?
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A couple of items that seem to be in confusion here. 1. The caddys need to know which sensor is reporting from what corner, hence the reprogramming requirement on a rim relocation. 2. The vette\caddy system is accurate to pounds pressure while the abs derived system is only proportionally accurate. In other words it comparing 1 tires rotating distance against the other tire. If you think about the amount of pressure loss needed to be useful as a "tool" then it's pretty much only usefull in warning of immnent disaster, not tire pressure monitoring.(they are talking about being able to detect a 20% loss of tire pressure as a usefull indicator)
John S. wrote:

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