'87 Suburban, help diagnose engine problems (long)

The three Ts of combustion .... Turbulence, time, temperature. First make sure the engine is in good mechanical shape (leak down test / compression test). Now is a good time to "read" each of plugs to make sure they all roughly look uniform, see if you have a problem cylinder (this can throw off the good reading of the correctly burning cylinders). Run the engine while monitoring the voltage to all combustion chambers. Are all showing roughly the same values (in other words make sure you ignition wiring is performing correctly)? After these checks, you go on to engine management stuff. You need a good ECU / controls / sensor trouble shooting / wiring manual , a good digital meter and a scan tool. All reading should be with specified values. Next step is down 12 beers and give your head a rest...............

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chrome
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Sounds like a typical failed O2 sensor to me. Sensor says lean and PCM adds fuel trying to drive the O2 rich. Result is a rich running engine with a lean code stored in the computer. Bob

Reply to
Bob
.

(defending her rights to free speech.....)

(una's writes......edited for relevant content.)

FWIW, in my profession diagnosis is an important skill,

********** AND I AM GOOD AT IT.***********

So I know I have twice requested, been charged for, and paid for a diagnosis...and not gotten any. (I paid because, well, I learned something. Too bad what I learned was to take my business somewhere else.) Peace?

=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0Una =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

If you're so good at it.............

fix it yourself.

Scrib Abell

In a pinch...............wet boogers make for a good adhesive.......when allowed to dry for a period of time.

Reply to
Scribb Abell

what size does your door plate say came on the truck and what size is on it now? on my pickup I went from 245/75R16 to 265/75R16, the resulting error was 1 MPH per 20 MPH.

yep

Once a cat is dead, it's dead. being 16 years old doesn't help it either. it will be between the Y pipe and the muffler. it should be the same size more or less than the muffler.

-Bret

Reply to
Bret Chase

I'd never ever ever try to use an additive to stop a leak.... fix the seal.

to replace the rear main seal, the engine must be separated from the transmission. most of the time, the tranny is removed to facilitate the seal R&R. the seal R&R is actually pretty easy, it's the getting to it that sucks.

tranny fluid is red (unless it is burnt), engine oil is light tan to black depending on age.

-Bret

Reply to
Bret Chase

Let's see...

You have an 87 Suburban with a 454. The plugs are sooting up. The ECM is storing lean codes.

IIRC, that engine uses at least one, possibly two air pumps.

If the air pump switching valve(s) are malfunctioning and dumping air (raw O2) into the exhaust manifold when they shouldn't be (closed loop), you'll experience exactly what you're describing. Over fueled to the point where the piston rings no longer seat and the oil becomes so dilluted that the seals begin leaking...

I've seen this many times.

I've seen mechanics tripped up by it many times also.

Reply to
Neil Nelson

post...............:)

valve....read it carefully. That problem will make it run rich and it thinks its lean.(Not all emission configs are capable of this problem, only if it has the air injection on the same side as the O2. A bad O2 will cause the CEL to come on, following your simptoms closely.Being that you replaced it twice already, maybe there is something else wrong......Burning enough oil to kill the O2 in a short time maybe? Is the smoke gray? gray=oil black=gas. Dont forget the MAP. check its vacuum source carefully... GL P.S. you really need a good tech to look at it in my opinion..... Ask around....

Reply to
Scott M

Black smoke = rich no smoke = lean (somtimes will ping when really lean) and I remember a rotten egg smell from the exhaust.

Reply to
eightupman

snipped-for-privacy@att.net (Una) wrote in news:bkdkkp$1d1$1 @doliolum.localnet:

[help me please]

[drivel claiming she's a mechanic, but not gonna help...]

Hey, see GMdud's remarks: proof positive that they are all blooming idiots - or else they'd be brain sturgeons.

Plus, all GM mechanics take it up the butt freely, "Mr. Goodenwinch" hmmmm, even sounds really gay!

Reply to
to-X-ic

I just thought of something does Mr Beyond Reproach "127.0.0.1" equal idiot?

Reply to
Charge

After reading the replies to your questions. I have some points to ask. Do you know if the ECM has been replaced? The spedo cal is in the ECM ( I think for 87) It sounds like the prev owner changed the ECM to try to fix the MIL condition. Just a thought. get the numbers off the top of the ECM and check it. You may have a bad ground connection somewhere, or just a bad connection. O2 sensors last a while. Oil leak , rear seal. Not really a big deal. With 135k on it, do you know what use the prior owner subjected it to? Heavy towing? stop and go? If it was a heavy service then I'd opt for a New power plant, (maybe trans too) if the Body, interior, and under carraige are in very good shape. Was it ever in an accident?

Cheers Martin

Reply to
Martin Riddle

replies in-line

I'm assuming you mean that at 80 it reads 60, not 40

anyway, the speedometer drive and driven gears can be changed to fix this

you will need to remove driveshaft and take off tail housing to see what gears you have (tooth counts)

let me know what you have, I'll send you the proper ones

at 7000 ft, I've seen a lot of tow vehicles do this, especially up a long grade

the ECM is basing fuel rate on your starting altitude, and as you climb, the mixture becomes richer because the air thins out (3% per 1000 ft)

I see you've changed the O2 sensor twice. get the fuel pressure checked, make sure it's in specification

rear seal needs replaced, which will necessitate dropping transmission

lots of engines are going strong at 135k

these 'mechanics' sound like parts changers to me

your check engine light should be out and stay out (if you authorize the work recommended)

you should be informed what was done (or needs to be done) to get to that point

pay via credit card, if it doesn't pan out, call the c c company and dispute the charge

listen: if it tows 3 k at 7000 ft, it's pretty damned healthy in my book

check fuel pressure

get actual compression figures

oil is cheap, a quart in 1000 miles is not too bad, just keep it full

you cat converter is probably OK, if it runs like you said it does.......... as I recall these have 2 converters, and I've seen the rear one plug up on a couple Sub's.........but it was totally gutless when it did

G
Reply to
Gary Glaenzer

I checked. The tires are the original size, 235/85R16. Your 1:20 is a 5% error, which seems reasonable. Mine is 19%, which does not seem reasonable. Looks like those little plastic gears inside the transmission are the wrong color. Next step is find out what color gears *should* be in there. I am told one of the two gears can be reached without too much dismantling; the other one would be expensive to change.

I know which object is the catalytic converter; I don't know where the O2 sensor is. But I'd expect upstream from the cat.

Una

Reply to
Una

Whats IIRC mean? The engine itself is essentially an air pump. In fact, thats really all it is if you want to reduce it to its simplest form so it can be repaird. I guess no one wants to, but they'd be a lot better off than applying theoretical rocket science with the all too often dubious, undocumented results, any where evident but for the bank account.

Hatt

Reply to
DJ Hatt

Maybe, maybe not, but I know they have learned to take an abstract level, stroke it, milk it, and bilk it while they wing it, mostly because our ego won't let, or can't let, or don't and won't admit its just junk and we can't accept that. Thereby giving us a new understanding.

The only practical level is to start at the center and work your way out. Not around the outside going in. That would be like patching a bicycle tire, torquing the spokes painstakingly one by one, and expecting all that to fix the burnt out bearing at the center.

Well, you wouldn't have been to two shops if there wasn't a limited supply knowlegde about what to do at one of them at least would you? I don't know whether you read my other posts or not, but as I said, I spent thousands going around the outside of my motor, and listening to every other mechanic call the next a liar. Some one told me they are the least trusted, most complained about profession there is. I always thought that was lawyers, but I could always be wrong.

Hatt

Reply to
DJ Hatt

But not for an 88? There is no speedo cal in my 88. They tell me that didn't come till digital speedos and nothing in those 88 ECM's concerning those driven by a chain of mechanical gearing, cables and the use of magnets in the speedo at the dash to translate the vehicle speed for your eyes.

It sounds

Just a thought. get the numbers

connection somewhere, or just a bad

to? Heavy towing? stop and go?

(maybe trans too) if the Body,

Reply to
DJ Hatt

"DJ Hatt" wrote

This only proves that stupid customers come in a close second to stupid mechanics.

Ian

Reply to
shiden_kai

I used the Suburban today to tow somewhere, and on the way back through Glorieta Pass and later on the flat the engine sounded wrong (stuttering?), had poor power, and sometimes exhausted thin black smoke.

I followed up with both shops. Shop #1 say they read the codes off the computer, and told me the mechanic's name. I still have to talk to him, to find out what else he did in the 2 hours he looked at it. At Shop #2 I talked at length to the mechanic who did the work (not the guy who called to sell me a new engine). His findings:

The O2 sensor is detecting huge instantaneous fluctuations in the exhaust, from extremely rich to extremely lean and back again. This looks like oil is confusing the O2 sensor, which gives the TBI instructions to adjust the air/fuel mix. And there is a lot of soot in the tailpipes. So there may be some usage of engine oil, but when there is, it is being masked by excess fuel, hence when there is visible exhaust it is black (not blue).

Compression test finds poor compression and suggests rings are bad:

Left Right dry wet dry wet

119 142 129 149 Front 123 139 131 151 127 141 131 144 127 141 131 149 Rear

The replacement engine Shop #2 recommends is a factory new engine, not a rebuilt one, plus several other factory new parts, to qualify for a 50,000 mile warranty on the engine. Reason to get a factory new engine: 454 being particularly difficult to rebuild well.

Prior owners. The one we bought the Surburban from had not had it long. He is into NASCAR (Dale Erhart? #3 stickers on the windows) and had been messing with the Suburban for a couple of years. DH found the engine(?) thermostat was not present, causing the cooling system to work overtime and the engine not to reach normal running temperature. The seller probably used the Suburban mostly to commute to work, maybe

5 miles each way. There was mention of towing a trailer, but I doubt he towed much because the trailer brake controller that was installed did not work right. When we bought it, the odometer was NAM; the seller asserted the true mileage was 130,000, but he also bought it NAM, so he doesn't know. It could be 230,000. I can't say which, from the condition.

The owner before that had the Sub repainted, from red to white. Looking at the panels, including the insides, there is some evidence of collisions in two places, prior to the paint job. But both collisions were minor. The R front fender is a replacement; its original color was white, not red. But the R door, front bumper, grill and lights all are original. The R rear fender has a dent under the bumper and the rear bumper is a replacement, but the gate etc. are original. Otherwise, the body is in really good condition. According to the guy who sold the Sub to me, this owner bought it as a fix-up project but didn't do much more than repaint it. I know nothing about who owned it in the ~13 years before that.

The interior is all original; the front bench seat now has holes in the upholstery under the driver, but is otherwise good. We plan to upgrade to bucket seats anyway; bench seats are a whiplash hazard in a crash. The headliner is separating from its backing, and the plastic sleeves on the seatbelts are mostly dead. The dash is sun-cracked (most older vehicles in New Mexico have this damage). The rest is fine.

Okay, I have many new things to investigate, but cannot get to them for a few days.

Una

Reply to
Una

those compression figures look good to me

and like I said before: FUEL PRESSURE CHECK !!!! your pump may be on the way out............

Reply to
Gary Glaenzer

"Una" wrote

Uh...I would agree with Gary, there isn't anything wrong with the engine based on those compression test readings. Please try to ignore 'wet' readings.....they aren't really all that useful, other then selling engines to customers that lack knowledge in this area.

I think that you should attempt to try some different technicians. It sounds as though they really don't know what they are up to.

Ian

Reply to
shiden_kai

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