OT: Delco Remy Generator

Replace the generator not an option? You might find a lead on a rebuilt one from

It would seem that an 8 volt battery would have more starting power, but it would also need more volts to charge it. If you don't have enough volts to charge a 6 volt, then the 8 volt is out of the question.

put a GM alternator and a 12-volt battery in it

the starter will work just fine on 12 V

oh, and if it's positive ground be sure to change that; I saw a 'pro' burn up 4 alternators before he would admit that the old 880 Oliver was a positive ground system

Oliver Expert (1951 '77' with 32 years of 12 V battery / 6 V starter experience)

excessively

Hi!

In time, certainly, but I can't devote the time to converting the whole tractor to 12V negative ground. I'm pretty sure that to be safe that way it would have to be largely rewired. Someone has taken just about no care of it over the years and this really shows in the electrical system.

That was my thought. What I'm wondering about is if the generator (now that it is working and charging just fine) will "scale up" its output to the slightly higher voltage or not.

I suppose I can just try it when the current battery wears out and see what happens. The worst could be that it simply sends up a cloud of smoke and a 12V conversion becomes imminent. :-)

I've got enough voltage to charge the six volt battery now and the generator seems to have needed a good cleaning more than anything else.

Thanks!

William

unless the wiring is totally frayed and bare, it will work fine

probably not

Its not a matter of the generator scaling up, its a matter of the voltage regulator not allowing it.

If its charging fine, and everything works, why change anything as far as going to 12 volt? If it was a road vehicle I could understand wanting brighter head lights and the like, but on a tractor? On your other comment earlier about voltage dropping off below high idle, that is normal for a generator system, it was one of the reason for the move to alternators.

Whitelightning

Hi!

I'd like to do this, but I don't have the time to tackle it right now. The six volt system it has now is better than absolutely nothing.

Until I can devote the time to conversion and possibly rewiring the tractor, I am going to have to get the six volt system it has now working as best I can.

Got that...I have a Deere 420 that's been converted to 12 volt/negative ground with the alternator from an old Buick. The starter spins

When I've had to jump-start the old Allis (quite often), I've noticed the same thing...starter spins *really* fast but seems to take it just fine.

Some reading on the 'net seems to show that the six volt starters are more than well built enough to stand 12V...

If (when) I get around to doing a 12 volt conversion, this is something I will have to do. I may rewire the whole tractor as the wiring it has now leaves a lot to the imagination.

William

Hi!

Exactly. When the 6 volt battery on this tractor was new, it would start the motor...not necessarily "easily" but it would work. It was only when the battery seemed to be slowly losing "oomph" and not being able to start the tractor without helping it that I suspected something was up. There are no lights to worry about. The only things needing power of any sort are the ignition coil and the starter.

Had the generator been damaged or found to be defective, I would just gone and converted up to 12 volt. But it just needed a good cleaning and to have the bearings oiled. I'm sure that when I get it put back on the tractor that all will be well.

If the generator (or something else) breaks, then I will do a twelve volt conversion.

That's not really what it is doing. Voltage for the most part seems stable. What I've noticed is that the ammeter appears to "back off" quite sharply when the engine is at almost full throttle. I don't know what this may mean. For all I know it could be normal.

William

it means the commutator is out of round and the brushes are jumping at high rpm

Take it to just about any electric motor shop and have them rebuild it, They will true the commutator and install new brushes, replace the bearings and test it out. Usually for around 45-50 bucks. Reinstall it. MAKE sure ALL the cables are good and that the "Grounds" are all OK. Check the battery and make sure you have 6 volts before you start it, then start the engine and run it at about half throttle, Check the voltage at the battery again. It should be about 7 volts if it is charging OK. If not you can adjust the regulator. A 6 volt system will work just fine as long as you keep the cables and battery in good shape. I restore and use older tractors for fun and hate to see one converted when it really isn't needed. If you want to DIY the parts are available at NAPA, just bring them the numbers off the generator, You can true up the commutator in a lathe OR chuck it into a mill or drill press and use a fine file and a pair of blocks to keep it square, then use some fine emery and polish it. If it needs the mica/bakelite cut that can be done with a small hacksaw blade. Just use an older one and flatten the teeth so it has no set before you use it. You don't have to cut far, just enough so the insulator is below the bars.

Ya and Burn up the ignition points... Also Fry the Starter .

you polarize the REGULATOR... NOT the Generator .

The regulator regulates the voltage to the battery

And a BAD 6 volt battery WILL make the AMPS back Down at High RPMS .

I had a 1953 chevy Car that I tried the 8 Volt battery in..

it did no better than the 6 volt. went back to 6 volt

Those That converted their 1949 thru 1954 Cars to 12 volt, PLAYED HELL getting them Started at 10 Below.. Whereas the 6 volt would take right off . ( you could CRANK longer with the 6 volt. )

Most of them went back to 6 volt which means they had to Remove all the Resistors they put in , as well as Bulb's , Seal beams. ignition coils , plus Generator and Battery .

My Chiltons 1954 Chevy manual Shows How to Wire a Test system..

When We rebuilt Generators At my Folks Auto parts , we Did the final Test using a 1/4 Hp Electric motor, with a pully 3/4 the size of the one that was on the Generator.

Hi!

Dunno about ignition points. Most tractors I've seen converted had the coil and points changed...possibly for this reason?

I doubt it would fry the starter. I've got a Deere 420 here that's been 12 volt for a long time and while the starter does spin over *quickly* it doesn't sound like it is being abused.

The Allis has also been started by 12 volts many a time. It too sounds fast, but nothing bad has ever come of it.

I've had both 12 and 6 volt starters apart...and I agree with what a lot of people say about the 6 volt ones being more robustly built than the 12s.

Sorry, text I was looking at used the word "generator". In any case, I found a really good set of directions for doing it. It looks like all I need is a bit of wire.

Next question: Why would the regulator become "unpolarized"?

It's a brand new battery...but the tractor has done this with many other batteries too.

It seems that another explanation is a three brush generator, which I have.

I'm surprised to hear that. I would have thought that a little extra voltage might have helped things.

Shame I don't have one. Maybe I'll look for one or I will simply copy the wiring on the tractor.

That is approximately like the motor I have now. The pulley is right, but the horsepower rating is different. I don't think it would require a very big motor. The 1/3 HP unit I had doing the job seemed to work fine.

If you apply power directly to the contacts of the generator, what happens? Will it run like a motor or will something bad happen?

William

NOPE not either one. The points will last longer as long as you use the correct resistor to drop the voltage down. Starter will work better and turn faster using LESS power with the 12 volt system. Since you are doubling the voltage the amperage will drop in half.

Wrong, you poloraize the Generator. All you are really doing is giving the poles a slight magnetic field so they will start generating power and become self sustaining. You do it to set the generator up as positive/negative ground, otherwise it could be working against you. The regulator could care less.

Actually the regulator compares the voltage of the battery with the voltage from the alternator and tries to keep it at the correct voltage while the vehicle uses power from it.

As well as causing a host of other problems.

Then you didn't adjust the rest of the system to match the 8 volt battery. Either way I wouldn't convert it from 6 volts since that destroys any value the tractor has.

you polarize them both

tell that to my Dad's Oliver 77

my dad's got a Farmall Model M that was converted to 12V, by removing the 6v battery and replacing it with a 12V (they must have done something to the generator, but I can't remember what). it remained a positive ground system. the points didn't burn out and the starter is just fine. it was converted about 25 years ago. he's also got 2 H's and an A, both 12V, though they use magnetos. nary a burnt out starter on any of them. same with his 50's Ferguson TO35, though that was converted to 12Vneg. ground, GM 1 wire alternator and all. no electrical problems, assloads of steering box problems, but no electrical ones.

-Bret

You polarize the generator by applying the correct polarity and voltage to it for a few seconds. What you are doing is magnetizing the field poles. If you reverse the polarity it will reverse the output voltage. The field on a generator stays magnetized and that's why they will "generate" without being excited. IE: That's why you can push start a car with a generator and a completely dead battery. Most of the advise you have received is correct.

The current falls off because the commutator is out of round or has a bad bearing behind it. It's jumping and making the brushes skip.

Most shops that do generators or electric motor service have a machine that undercuts the mica after they turn the commutator. It's not a big deal.

The regulator for a generator controls it output voltage and current. Generators are not self current limiting like an alternator.

Al

Hello all again...

Okay, an update on my progress.

Somehow I lost track of how the wires connected, and despite having an appropriate wiring diagram at hand, I got it wrong with the wires reversed. I caught my mistake in less than a second by looking at the ammeter and noticing a very high draw in the "discharge" side. Shut the motor off immediately. Nothing smoked or burned that I could tell. I think I got things shut down in more than ample time to prevent a disaster.

I corrected the wiring as per the diagram and powered the tractor up. Then I repeated the polarization process. After starting the tractor the ammeter stayed pretty well at 0 amps output. I figured that since the battery was full and with the switch on (but no engine running yet) there was a slight "discharge" indication that the needle being at 0 might be fine now that it was running.

It was only after a few starts that I noticed the battery getting weak and the generator not seeming to charge it. My dad fooled around with the contact points on the regulator/interruptor after taking the inspection cover off. We started the tractor up and this time it was charging! It was putting about 12 amps, which is the most I've ever seen it do. Checks with a voltmeter confirmed that charging was indeed taking place. While it was charging nothing seemed amiss. The tractor was running and running well. Voltages seemed to be right on.

After a while of running, the contact points on the regulator/interruptor opened and the ammeter stood at 0 once again.

Is this how it is supposed to work, or is something not quite right here? Will it just cycle on and off like this in normal operation?

Thanks in advance for any help. Apologies if this is getting annoying or too far OT. I'd like to get this fixed and still happen to believe that I can do so with some help.

William (The Guesser)

sounds like you've got it fixed

u still need the regulator... other wise you will do what we use to CALL ( THROW the LEAD ) Fry the amature .