Redundant Systems

Its been said manufacturers scrape for every penny's saving, yet I see fancy wheels on trucks that must cost hundreds of dollars each.

Would you not be happier with having plain Jane steel wheels on your truck and having GM and Ford put the thousand dollars instead into what is termed "redundant systems"?

Aircraft use redundant systems. It means, for example, that instead of a single electric fuel pump buried in your gas tank, you have TWO pumps. One mechanical; one electrical. If (or rather, when) one pump fails, the other takes over and you don't stall out in the middle of nowhere, in a snowstorm, or in the middle lane of the Hollywood Freeway. In case you don't know, fuel pumps were once a road-side serviceable item; they are no longer so.

Redundancy goes much further than fuel pumps. It is possible to make your truck ALMOST reliable to the point that you would never have to worry about getting from point A to point B.

Believe me. Its true. And the total cost is no more than the cost of those fancy mag wheels.

Reply to
Nomen Nescio
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Reply to
HPGrn

There is a massive difference between an aircraft and an automobile. The automobile never leaves the ground, so the failure of its engine or trans- mission doesn't result in the vehicle diving 15,000 feet to a fiery crash killing hundreds. Jet aircraft rely on their mechanical systems to remain in the air, which is why there is such massive redundancy there - it is an absolute requirement. Prop-driven aircraft, like the little Pipers and Cessnas, can lose their single engine and still make a controlled landing, because they are designed specifically to function at lower flight speeds. Even a single- engine helicopter will auto-rotate if the engine fails, which means that the crew has a fighting chance of surviving the crash. Even so, helicopters that routinely fly over large bodies of water are required to be equipped with at least two engines (the Navy/Marine Corp version of the Bell UH-1 has two turbine engines, where I believe the Army model has, or at least HAD, only one) because even a 'soft' landing in water means you're going to be swimming for a while.

Automobiles DO have redundant systems, believe it or not. Your brake system is split into two hydraulic circuits - front and rear. The failure of one means reduced brake capacity, but you still have the ability to control the vehicle. This was not always the case - prior to 1967, most US-made cars had single-hydraulic brake systems, and a busted line anywhere in that setup meant NO brakes at all. If the engine stalls, the power-brake system is designed to continue to work for at least one, and usually two applications of the brake, and even then if the power assist ceases functioning, the vehicle can STILL be hauled down - it just takes a bit more effort, that's all. And, of course, there is still the emergency/parking brake, and even if all that is useless, a good driver can still bring the vehicle to a halt in relative safety - although such drastic measures usually mean a trip to the body shop, at least.

There isn't much that can go wrong with a steering system. If the power assist fails, the vehicle can still be driven - it'll just be more difficult.

Your electrical system has redundancy as well - if the alternator fails, the battery can supply the electrical requirements of the car for a short time, at least until you can get the vehicle safely off the road.

Most vehicles - trucks in particular - are designed with a significant degree of 'fault tolerance' - it isn't redundancy per se, but it does make a critical system more robust. If the ECM fails, it usually goes into a 'limp home' mode that will allow you to get the car safely off the road (home or a repair shop even). Cooling systems are usually built to handle situations far more severe than any conceivable 'normal' operating environment, and even if the cooling system quits, you can drive the vehicle for a VERY short time (usually just long enough to get to a safe place to shut it off).

You are also forgetting something about human nature - a redundant system means that the vehicle continues to move even if the primary system has failed, right? In the minds of most folks, that means the vehicle is still functional, and so the repair is 'not needed'. Once upon a time, cars were equipped with full-size spare tires - not so any more. Now, they equip them with those Mickey Mouse things, and those tires are engineered for a very short service life - usually less than 100 miles, during which the car will be the most ill-handling beast imaginable - all of this is intended to 'force' you to the repair shop ASAP.

I agree that maybe a second fuel pump wouldn't be a bad idea - but the service life of an OEM fuel pump in a new car is supposed to exceed the service life of the vehicle anyway, so I don't see it as a pressing requirement. Incidentally, the reason they're in the tank now is because it is easier for a pump to 'push' a liquid than it is to 'pull' it. It's true that its more difficult to service them there, but look at the modern engine - would you REALLY want to try to dig through all that get at a fuel pump there? Suddenly having it in the tank doesn't look so bad, yes?

Transmissions and engines are not really items that can be made redundant in a cost-effective way - though the new crop of hybrid cars actually do have some redundancy in them. They operate from an internal combustion engine, which drives a generator to charge storage batteries, which in turn provide the power to move the car. The failure of the generator set means you have a limited supply of electrical power regardless - and since most of those vehicles use two or more motors to operate the drive wheels, even the failure of one means at least some level of function based on the other.

Finally, most folks today have cell phones, or can at least afford them. If the vehicle breaks down, get it out of traffic if you can and call for help. If you live in rural regions where help might not reach you right away, you should be prepared for the weather - for instance, I keep blankets, extra clothing, and other supplies in the vehicle at all times. In summer, I make it a point to have at least two or three 16-20 oz bottles of water on hand. I also carry some basic tools, extra fuel, and a few select spare parts.

Reply to
xmh31d_64

While I agree it may be always better to try and be prepared for all manner of problems, the reality is that most of us always have the second flat while the spare is still on or the engine overheats whilst driving down that lonely Texas highway at night some 50 miles from the nearest service station and the spare water jug that you kept in the toolbox sprung a leak sometime back that you didn't know about and is now completely empty. The electric fuel pump in the tank only is a particular issue with me as I have had 3 fail on me on 1998 or newer vehicles in the last few years that have left me stranded on remote highways at night or on weekends. The last one cost me over $750 to get fixed by the only dealer service station in the area after towing charges.

My BIL just bought one of these new Dodge trucks with the 18" chrome rims on it. I immediately convinced hime to take it back to the dealer and get the old standard 16 inch chrome rims put on. The tires you get from the dealer are only rated for about 20K miles at best and then you have to pay to replace them. Anybody price the difference between 16" and 18" tires lately? Last time I looked they were at least $150 more per tire.

Anyway, redundancy can be available in ALL electrical and mechanical systems if you want to pay the price... doubt if manufacturers will ever see a positive ROI on much redundancy built into production vehicles though... too much money made in the service departments and through parts sales of those wear items not covered by the warranty such as fuel pumps, brake components, clutches, etc...

Razor

Reply to
Razorblade

considering how reliable my truck has been, this would be a terrible waste of money.

Reply to
Sigwings

I can't believe you guys bit on this obvious trolling.

Reply to
Joe

Trolling it may have been, but believe it or not I've had this discussion before.

Reply to
xmh31d_64

You're in Texas, right? Hot weather, right? If you want longer fuel pump life, fill the tank before it gets down to 1/4 tank. You're right that fuel pumps generally don't last quite as long in hotter climates, but if you keep the tank fuller, the pump will stay much cooler and last much longer.

As to the tire issue, where do you get the idea that factory equipment tires only last 20k? I have NEVER had a tire wear out on a new car in less than

40k miles, usually longer than that. If you drive around with them chronically underinflated or are otherwise abusive, you'll certainly will reduce the tire wear. However, the only tires I can think of that will wear out in 20k miles are very soft, low profilers on sports cars. Certainly your poor Brother-in-Law's truck doesn't fit that description.

Scratching my head,

CJB

Reply to
CJB

Yeah really!! 20K? No manufacturer would put any tire that doesn't last more than 36K. They are covered by the bumper-to-bumper warranty (excluding misuse or accidents, road hazards,etc.). At least that's the case with Chevy cars. Not sure if there is different coverage concerning trucks....

Scott

helicopters

Reply to
IYM

I believe he said 18 inch wheels which probably meant low profile high performance ie soft and sticky. Any one remember the IROC when it came out,

20k on the tires was absolutely out standing and meant a 65 year old scared to death of the car was driving it. I remember parents coming in ballistic over Junior having toasted the tires in only 12K, untill they read the warranty or rather lack there of on the replacement tires. Then they would want us to sell new rims for standard tires, which we refused to do. Go look at Goodyear's web site at performance tires such as the Eagle RS-A for the SSR, you'll find no tread warranty listed for them. Step into a set of Yokahoma "ultra-high performance" and you find the same thing. Same with Bridgestone high performance speed rated such as the Potenza S03 series, and even the much lower rated Potenza RE010 only carry the "standard warranty" ie that it wont come apart, but no mileage. Many carry limited mileage, untill you read the fine print , "does not apply to speed rated"

Whitelightning

Reply to
Whitelightning

I have factory 18 inch wheels on my 2004 F-150 4x4. These are definitely not low profile tires.

My Corvette has 315/35ZR17 low profile tires on the rear and they will easily last more than 30K miles.

Reply to
Mark Jones

If he had low profile tires on 18 inch wheels on that truck, I seriously doubt it came from the factory like that. Besides, if you wanted to keep the same diameter and ride height as original, you'd have to use something bigger than 18's on a full size Dodge truck.

CJB

Reply to
CJB

I naturally assumed after looking at dodges web site the 18's had to after market dealer installed, as dodge didn't list 18's for the full size truck, nor for the Dakota, 17 and 20 on the full size, 16 and 17 on the dakota.. And since down in the dirt is so popular these days (never understood the desire to lower a truck, turn a useful tool into a wall flower) I didn't doubt a dealer doing it.. Got a local Ford dealer who has been raising

4x4's 8 inch lift kits.

Whitelightning

Reply to
Whitelightning

Everyone has to remember that tire (tread warranty), etc. no matter what your 'normal' factory warranty is only as good as offered by the tire company. In other words, you are most certainly only covered for defects excluding wear.

If you burn through a set of rubber in 10K you are very likely SOL.

I had a set of tires totally gone by 18K with several rotations and alignments. Best to check the treadwear rating on any tire you plan on purchasing if you want long life. Also, keep the inflation, rotation and alignments up to date too.

In any case, you will almost certainly need new rubber before you budget for it in any case.

On 11/15/05 9:37 PM, in article OXwef.16592$rO4.11961@trnddc05, "Whitelightning" wrote:11/15/05 9:37 PM

Reply to
Ron B

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