snythetic oils?

You are right. I have seen the vette engine manufacturing process. No way

2.2 4 bagers would be made that way.

hank

Nope, but it doesn't take an engineering degree to sort thru the marketing hype...

The guy I will believe before the Mobil Oil mouthpiece is the man who performs the machine work on the engines I send him for rebuild, if the ring/cylinder wall finish warrant break-in on conventional oil per his recommendations, that's what I'll follow. If the ring/cylinder wall finish allow for using a synthetic as a break-in lube per his recommendations, that's what I'll follow.

By all means, refinish an engines cylinder walls as appropriate for chrome rings and install a set of chrome rings, fill 'er up full of your favorite synthetic oil and come on back and tell me all about how well the rings seated (if they ever do), I need a good laugh.

The vehicles cited by the Mobil1 blurb are premium priced exotics, premium prices tend to allow for more exotic machining methods, the larger displacements found in these engines also make it necessary that oil control and the resultant quenching effect of the oil above the top piston ring be more tightly controlled. Why? Remember, that 8.0 liter Viper has to meet the exact same emissions requirements measured in mass as the 2.0 liter Neon.

So, it's that and having attending Chevrolet product technical training on the introduction of the Corvette engine when it first came factory filled with Mobil 1 and the great pains the technical instructors went to in explaining the "why" of how engines such as those mentioned -could- use synthetic oil from initial start up and the "why not" of using it in the lesser offerings. I suppose if I dug deep enough thru my TSB files, I could find the specific TSB that GM issued that addresses these concerns, but in all honesty, it's not worth the bother, and besides, the more people who create oil burning engines by not adhering to established ring seating procedures, the tougher the emission laws that are liable to be enacted, and the tougher the emissions laws, the more the money that finds its way into my bank accounts. Hell, it could almost be as good as if GM was selling "Y" code

307 Olds engines again.

The first Corvette engine that came OEM with Mobil 1 was built

-by- Mercury Marine -for- Chevrolet. The engine machining line was anything but cheap.

There's more to it than warranty claims about oil consumption.

*That* is why I suggested that people who wanted to learn more follow up beginning with reading the back issues of Engine Builder magazine published by Babcox Publishing.

A good example would be the differences between GM divisions, i.e., the ring packages used in a 5.0L Olds engine versus the ring package used in a 5.0L Chevrolet engine. One eventually earning a reputation as an oil burning pig, the other hearlded as the greatest ever (so to speak).

I've seen engines broken in on Mobil 1 that after over 20,000 miles still didn't have the rings seated, and could be reasonably assumed, never would be. Like ol' Smokey Yunik said, the most important thing is round holes that are sealed well.

Pretty much echos what I said earlier; can't hurt anything by waiting a few dino oil changes before doing the switch to synthetic.

Actually you are reading it incorrectly. Mobil made a statement and then offered examples to show their point that new engines no longer require a break in period. "You can start using Mobil 1 with SuperSynT in new vehicles at any time, even in brand-new vehicles. In fact, Mobil 1 with SuperSynT is original equipment (it is installed at the factory) in..." and "Current engine manufacturing technology does not require this break-in period. As indicated by the decisions of the engineers who design these high-performance cars...". So you can see that I was not taking it out of context, in that they state it can be used in "new vehicles at any time" is one statement and examples follow, period. The "technology" that lends itself to need motor oil IS the same in all personal vehicle engines today. There are many other differences though, as you mentioned. Take a look at an (much) older vehicle users manual and it will mentioned a "break-in period". Take a look at a semi-newer vehicle manual and you will find no mention of this. They just did not forget to add it in all of them... it no longer applies.

As I stated, Mobil disagrees with you.

Hey Todd - some guys are just like my dad. You'll never change their mind. Let them keep living in the 50's. Technology will continue to move on.

Again, you read it incorrectly. Those were only _examples_. Mobil in _no way_ stated that those were the only vehicles that could use syth oil from the start. The reason why those vehicles come from the factory with synth and others don't is purely a marketing tool, in that it's not cost effective to sell all vehicles with synth and in that oil manufactures don't want to push synth oil too hard now as they still make money off their currently manufactured dino oil.

Hey.... I can only tell you what _Mobil states as fact, in writing_. Take it how you want. Seems like alot of liability just to get people to change from one brand of their oil to another a little quicker. Perhaps they know their oil.

Gee George, here's a newsflash for you...

I use (and have used for over 25 years) Mobil 1 in all of the vehicles that I own, currently being;

1998 Dodge Intrepid 1995 Dodge Dakota SLT 4X4 1970 Plymouth AAR 'cuda Past owned vehicles which I used Mobil 1 in; 1991 Cadillac Seville 1993 Crown Victoria PI 1989 Toyota Camry Altrac 1989 Toyota Camry 1985 Toyota Tercel wgn 4X4 1985 Ford F-150 4X4 1978 Dodge Aspen RT Super Coupe 1974 Dodge Challenger rallye 1970 Dodge Challenger

A number of the engines in the above list wee built using current state of the art piston rings and cylinder wall finish techniques.

Being cautious when it comes to engine break in is not quite the same thing as never changing my mind and living in the 50's.

As I've said in other posts, I've seen engines that were erroniously run too early in their life on synthetic oil, the rings never seated and never would have seated.

Do you people honestly believe that Mobil oil tests their product on every possible drivetrain offered every year?

Do you people honestly believe that only one type of piston ring is currently being used by the OEMs in their current offerings of new model products?

Why would Mobil choose only the factory 'hot rods' as their example? Why didn't they include the every day stuff that makes up the majority of the vehicle sales volume?

Wrong.

Puh-leeze... There is way more profit margin to be made on the synthetic that there is on the dino stuff.

actually, it's what -you think- it states.

What liability? There are millions of [other] experienced mechanics out there willing to advise their customers against switching to a synthetic too soon, not to mention the fact that it would cost an individual vehicle owner thousands of dollars in retainer fees to an attorney to even *begin* any sort of tort action against a major oil company, companies who just happen to have attorneys on staff, on payroll anyway. Nice ideology you have there, but way far off of the real world.

I can't think of any valid reason to advise someone to switch to using synthetic oil early on in the vehicle's (engine's) life, I can think of valid reasons to advise against doing so.

I have an old 1985 Chevy S-10 Diesel. It had 81000 miles on it when I bought it, and had been running Rotella-T its whole life.

At 82,500 I switched it to Rotella-T Synthetic, which is a full synthetic oil. Its fuel mileage went from 26mpg to 28mpg with no other changes, and has stayed there.

As always, Your Mileage May Vary.

AP

Great thread. Wal*Mart has Mobile 1 for around $3.80 a quart. I assume that it's a full synthetic oil and a good one at that. The other so called full synthetics are more expensive. What's the advantage of a higher priced oil, like Red Line or Amsoil?

I also own a Dodge truck with a 360 V8. The owners manual calls for 10W 30 oil. I was using 15W 40 Delo in it. One day I was looking up something and I found a warning not to use 10W 40 in this engine. Thought that was odd, so I asked around. Some so called auto genius told me on new engines the tolerances were much better than older engines and I should never run heaver oil that specified. Then he told me about all kinds of failures caused by running oil that was heavier than specified. He even said on a new Toyota they tore apart the heavier oil caused high ring to cylinder pressure by being to thick to fit between the ring and piston ring land??? I switched to

10W 30 and see no difference except the lifters are definitely quieter when I first start it after sitting overnight.

Al

Here is an article that might help some with this question Al.

You could use a 5x40 and use the same oil all year instead of having to switch.

Just my $0.02.

AP

[snip]

I'll wholeheartedly agree with this.

Coming from my experience with aircraft piston engines, for the first little while in your engine's life you WANT some wear. Otherwise the rings won't seat, and you'll have an oil burning pig on your hands.

With aviation engines, both Lycoming and Continental, the two major producers of aviation engines, require that for the first 50 to 100 hours their engines be run with "mineral" oil. This is oil for which the only additive is a pour point reducer. Since it doesn't have any film strength additives to hold a good film the rings break through its film on just about every power stroke, get LOTS of wear, and get very well seated. After that first 50-100 hour break in period most Lyconasaurs can be expected to run for 2000 hours, and sometimes more, without problems. Most aircraft owners use AeroShell oils, which are part synthetic.

Synthetic oil got a black eye in the aviation world when Mobil introduced Mobil AV1. Mobil recomended extended drain intervals on it, and it turned out their oil wasn't up to the task. Most airplanes get oil changes every 50 hours when running dino oils, or 100 hours when running part synthetics. Mobil recomended 250 hour changes. They hadn't done enough testing with aircraft engines running leaded fuel. Lead is truly awful stuff for engines. With 250 hour oil changes the oil leaded up so much that it couldn't hold all of the lead in suspension, and it wound up plugging up people's engines with "grey paint sludge". There were a number of oil related engine failures, a couple of crashes, a big lawsuit, and Mobil bought a lot of people new engines, and withdrew AV1 from the market. Since then nobody has ventured into the aviation market with a full synthetic oil.

I ran across a case of it a couple of years ago while cleaning out my boss's warehouse. It ran just fine in my car.

Jets, on the other hand, have run synthetic oils since the early 1950's.

AP

you have not been to Wal-Mart lately. Mobil 1 is $4.72 and a 5 quart jug is $22.42

That is about what a 6 qt. case cost at Sam's Club I think. It has been a few months since I bought one. MR

The price I quoted was from two days before the post. One thing to note; All Wal*Marts do not have the same prices. I went to a Wal*Mart across town yesterday with a friend. Something I regularly buy for $10.09 at the local store was $11.97 there. In the pet department I was going to pick up a bag of sunflower seeds, they were two dollars more.

Al

This is true... we have 2 Wal-Marts in Bloomington/Normal. At one, Mobil is $4.08/qt. and the other it is $4.32/qt.

At the store with it for $4.08/qt, they priced the 5 quart jug at

22.05... now that's over TWO dollars more expensive than if you bought 5 individual quarts. I always thought buying in bulk was supposed to be CHEAPER! Doesn't make sense, but then again nothing at Whitetrash-Mart makes sense.

Tony

Happy New Year Tony - What is nice about America is that you can choose to avoid Walmart. I love Walmart for their low prices and convenience. We are lucky to have one close by. You sound like a smart shopper - just shop somewhere else. If you don't like it there - stay away. I like Walmart - that must make me Whitetrash.

================= LOL I like to call it "Megalow-Mart" from the show "King of the Hill".