After the 15min. run the top radiator hose was too hot to keep my finger on, whereas the bottom hose was barely warm.
I read somewhere today for the first time that the bleed valve *must* be open before filling is *started*. I could drain it and refill it again with the bleed valve open IF I could get the radiator drain c*ck to open sufficiently to drain the system. I had managed to turn it 180 degrees before I did the a/c. but now I can't get it past 100 degrees, at which point all there is is a slow drip. I haven't tried pliers because there is a strict warning against doing so.
Is it possible that there is an air bubble right where the water pump is?
We had a '73 Newport that had a vacuum-operated valve in the line going to the heater core. The valve was operated by the dashboard cabin heat-control levers. The idea (I think) was that in the summer you might not want hot water circulating in the heater core.
Maybe the 300m has a similar valve - and it's not working properly (and that's why you're not getting cabin heat).
Even if that was the case, it wouldn't be the cause of the temp guage going into the red - unless there's a problem with the sensor?. If the coolant sensor is sitting in an air pocket (ie - if it's not immersed or surrounded by coolant for some reason) then it's possible that it could reach a high temp that's not representative of the real engine coolant temperature.
What I'd do if I were you is run the engine without a thermostat. I used to do that with my '65 Polara (with slant-6). Running without a thermostat and the temp still going into the red would tell you that the problem is not the thermostat.
You could also try an alternate way of measuring the engine temperature (external hand-held temp guage of some sort) to confirm over-temp condition before taking the pump out.
I did manage to get the drain c*ck open sufficiently to drain the system (with the bleed valve open and the bottle cap off). I then refilled it with the bleed valve still open and again with frequent pumping of the upper radiator hose. I did have to add more coolant to get it full, which suggests that air might have been occupying part of the space previously.
Again I let some coolant flow into the overflow compartment, as would have happened with the "special tool" funnel used according to the manual; can we estimate with any accuracy how much the special funnel holds and would allow to flow into the overflow compartment?
I ran the engine for about 15 min. as before. Once the temperature gauge got up to about half-scale it sat there for quite a while but then started rising rapidly. I switched off before it got to the red.
If I read the manual correctly, the car should be drivable after following the filling/bleeding procedure, even if every last bit of air has still not been removed: that is supposed to happen after a few warm-up/cool-down cycles, which surely implies driving the car, doesn't it?
Still no heat in the cabin. Top hose hot, bottom hose barely warm.
Re: possible water pump failure. I still have my old water pump somewhere but can't put my hand on it, so I can't see precisely how it is constructed. But wouldn't the impeller and the pulley both be keyed to or shrunk onto the shaft. How could the pulley be turning (driven by the timing belt) without the impeller also turning? -- unless the pump has seized, in which case the timing belt isn't going to last much longer.
the impeller on mine wasn't keyed, it was pressed on. it started doing exactly what you are describing, in my 3.5L Concorde. sitting in a parking lot idling and it suddenly started getting hotter, and the temp gauge went up into the red.
Sorry about the full quoting. I top-posted because I was replying to Rob, who did. Intermingled top- and bottom-posting can get very confusing.
I see that the service manual's diagnostic check for water-pump failure is to check for cabin heat: no heat may indicate water-pump failure.
I found a detailed description (with pictures) on line of replacing the water pump on a 300M, but it looks messy, and I don't know that I'm ready to tackle it. (BTW, he says that the original impeller was plastic
-- as ISTR mine was -- but the new one he installed looked like metal.) I'm inclined to go back to the shop that replaced the water pump along with the timing belt, etc. about 25K miles ago, because there *might* have been a "limited lifetime warranty" on the pump itself (as I see on some of the after-market ones), and they *might* give me a break on the labor charge as well in the circumstances. I don't think I want to entrust it to my neighbor's friend who admits to drilling extra holes in thermostat housings as a means of dealing with problems.
I've done 3 of them. they are cake with the exception of your timing belt tensioner which I have worked out a cheat on that too. that would take too long to explain though.
the main thing is draining coolant, pulling top radiator support, then hoses, fans, and the radiator itself. once you get that out it's just a matter of pulling the two covers over the timing belt housing, and releasing the timing belt tension so you can get the belt off the water pump.
which I still had access to my alldata account for the LHS, the pics would make it easier. since I no longer own it, I didn't subscribe this year.
This has been a source of great info for the cost. and each year after its cheaper, plus you can print out the info and pictures to carry it out into the garage, or just take a laptop out there with you.
How long did it take you to do the job the first time? Any idea what the "official" time for the job is? My wife says, "Take the car somewhere to have it done", but I'm thinking that it's not as difficult a task as I had thought: I had thought that the drive pulley on the end of the crankshaft had to be pulled, but I see that that is not so. And if I reuse the timing belt, which is only 25K miles old, I don't have the hassle of taking it off and trying to put a new one on -- which took the other guy 2hr the first time.
the first time took me two days because I had broken the timing belt, I couldn't find the timing mark on the crank. and also I couldn't get anyone to give me a clear answer as to whether or not the 3.5 is an interference engine. mine was a first generation so it was not. the 2nd gen is I think.
but 2nd time it was around 4-5. took out the drive belts, and fans but not the radiator. mainly just for clearance. Took my time with it to make sure I did it right, and ran to the store to get new hoses at one point.
the timing belt doesn't need to come off, just loosened as it wraps around the water pump.
keep in mind this is for a 1st gen engine in a Concorde/LHS/ New Yorker and intrepid. So some bolts may be in different spots.
actually now that I think about it, it didn't take that long because I did the pump only. I had done the timing belt 3 months earlier and hadn't done the pump at that time and I should have. So it was pump only.
The 2nd time was on the LHS, not the Concorde, and it needed the belt but also the tensioner pulley was gone with roller bearings laying all over the place, so it took just a little longer. but I had learned so much about how to get into it, to change the belt, that tear down and reassembly went pretty fast. I drained coolant, pulled fans, drive belts, took over the belt cover, and changed out belt and pump.
It might be a good idea to turn engine over and line up the cam pulleys with timing marks on the block, and making sure the crank timing mark is straight up. that way the engine is in time when you take the belt loose. when you put it back together, make sure the timing marks are still lined up, and your good to go.
Bingo! The impeller is not just loose on the shaft but fractured. I'll try to find some place to post a picture.
According to the markings on the pump that the former* Chrysler dealer installed, it's the same as the one Advance Auto Parts sells. The new one I'm about to install came from NAPA; when they tried to sell me a new timing belt as well, I declined, since the current one has only 25K miles on it, but I can't see any markings on it that indicate the brand, so maybe I *should* buy a new belt as well, in case the one they installed is as crappy as the pump.
*They'd already lost their dealership (as had the Dodge dealership in town) by the time I had the timing belt job done, but I'd kept going back, as I reckoned they knew what they were doing and would still have any special tools that were needed -- and they were much closer. Now we have a new Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep dealership town -- a company that already had dealerships for some other makes.
I bought the new belt, but it was only when I went to instal it that I noticed that the black on the tensioner pulley was not just black from the belt: the pulley itself was black *plastic*(!!) -- no maker's name, part number, or any markings at all to identify it. So I bought a new one from NAPA.
BUT when I tried to torque the bolt to the specified 45 ft. lbs. it got to about 35 ft. lbs then started turning freely, just as somebody else reported on the Intrepid forum (and somebody there reported that a 300 owner had had the same problem). The guy reported there that he had the Heli-Coil items he needed but never reported back on the success or otherwise of the repair.
I am at present waiting for word from S&J Discount Tools on expedited shipping of the appropriate Heli-Coil tool and insert (AZ and Advance have only 10mm-long inserts; I need 20mm) and 13/32" drill. I'm also going to need a right-angle drill, but that may well be useful for other things as well; Ryobi (sold by Home Depot) makes one that works with the batteries I have already.
BTW, the water pump I got from NAPA has a black impeller, but it looks and sounds (when I flick it with a finger nail) more like metal than plastic. The box has the name "Gates" on the bottom. The replacement tensioner pulley is "supplied by" (it doesn't say "made by") Cloyes Gear Company, Paris, Arkansas.
.. and now I see in small print on the bar-code label of the tensioner pulley "Made in Korea."
By the time S&J Discount Tools got back to me to say that it would take
*three weeks* to get what I wanted (despite the information on their Web site that all but one of the items "usually ships within 24 hours" and the other "usually ships within 48 hours"), I had decided that this was a job I did not want to tackle: what if I drilled too far and got drilling debris in the oil pump that is back to back with the tensioner mechanism? I'm taking it in to an auto shop tomorrow and let them do the Heli-Coil job and put everything back together; if they did only the Heli-Coil job, I would still have to pay to have the car transported back home so I could do the rest myself.
The guy there was surprised that anyone would use a plastic pulley for such service. Hearing of the two or more cases of stripped threads at less then the specified 45 ft. lbs., he said he would check for updates to the Service Manual -- but in any case installing a Heli-Coil should permit even more torque to be applied.
yeah heli - coil work can be tricky. you have to make sure you drill the hole exactly straight, and not at an angle. you then have to use the supplied TAP to cut threads in the new hole for the heli coil insert, then screw in the insert, making sure it is bottomed out at the end of the threads. most machinists I know that install heli-coils in product parts say its best to knock out the bottom tang with a real small chisel one the insert is down all the way, that way there's no danger of your bolt backing out accidently.
The specific charges for the Heli-Coil job and installation of the tensioner pulley were $80 for labor (probably reasonable) and $20 for the Heli-Coil itself (compared to S&J Discount Tools' price of $1.20, but I didn't feel in the mood for arguing). That's still less than it would have cost me to get what I needed to do the job myself (although that would have included a right-angle drill that could have come in useful later as well).
I gave them all the coolant that I had drained out, plus some I had left over, but they still charged me for more. Perhaps with the pump not functioning there were still unfilled spaces in the cooling system. They also replaced the filler cap.
The boss said that if I had brought it to them to do the water pump, they would definitely have called me and recommended replacing the plastic tensioner pulley.
In the process of Googling something else, I came across an archived version of the discussion here back in June 2009 about the $700 quote I had received for replacing the timing belt, water pump, tensioner pulley, etc.; some thought it was high, while someone else said that, considering the markup on OEM parts, it was not unreasonable. BUT, as we now know, I did not get OEM parts for my $700.
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