1987 Plymouth Reliant 2.5L won't start (early model)

I'm reaching out to those Chrysler/Plymouth gurus out there for help. I'm almost done with this vehicle, despite replacing the head gasket and exhaust system recently. Here's what has happened -

1 - Started the car to leave the office, it stalled out and wouldn't restart. I have ample spark and fuel delivery.

2 - So far I have replaced: plugs, wires, ignition coil, MAP sensor, ECM (power module located along driver-side fender wall behind the battery), fuel filter, distributor cap, rotor and ignition pickup (Hall Effect sensor).

3 - The car turns over fine, gets gas into the EFI throttle body (single fuel injector) and spark is ample on each plug/wire, it just won't "catch".

I've checked the error codes via the ignition switch 'on-off-on-off-on' sequence, and all I get is '12 55'. If I'v read the Chilton's manual correctly, a code 12 is supposed to be "transaxle unlock relay", which for the life in me I have never heard of, unless they're referencing a neutral safety switch. If anyone can tell me if I've read the code incorrectly I'd sure like to know. I thought the code 12 was the opening sequence for any/all codes off the ignition switch method, but maybe I'm wrong?

I've just ordered a new Logic Module, and am waiting for it to arrive (today/tomorrow), so keeping my fingers crossed. If this doesn't work, I am at a loss to fix this car that up until now has been so good to us.

Does anyoe have any ideas what else may be the culprit here??

Thanks to all of you in advance!

Reply to
Viper2
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If you had ample fuel and ignition, why did you replace all these parts? It's a whole lot cheaper and less frustrating to figure out what's wrong first, and then only replace what you need to.

First off, toss the Chilton's and get a real factory service manual. Quite a few people claim they can't afford the FSM; the way you're throwing money at this problem, you can certainly pay for the FSM.

I've never seen documentation saying that 12 is the "start of codes", but Dan Stern (who knows a whole lot more about this than me) asserts this is the case, and I've verified it on a couple of cars. However (Dan correct me if I'm wrong!), I believe if you only see 12 and 55, it means "Memory standby power recently lost" (this is the translation I find in tables), which has a variety of possible causes, most of them related to either a bad connection someplace.

The sad thing is, it's entirely possible this will "fix" it -- not because there was anything wrong with the old one, but because installing the new one will jostle the wires and reseat the connectors.

Reply to
Joe Pfeiffer
12 means the battery was recently disconnected. 55 is end of codes. As to starting, this requires, fuel, spark, and compression. You have checked two of the three. I'd look at the timing belt as I believe the 2.5L has one. Did you get it back on correctly and were all the timing marks aligned. If not the timing belt, then look at the head gasket work you did, although it is hard to imagine it being bad enough not to start.

Bob

Reply to
Bob Shuman

Thanks for your input, gentlemen. Yes, the timing belt was replaced & timing was set correctly back in December, and the car's been running like a dream ever since. I also have checked compression, and there's no problem there. I have pulled the timing cover and verified the position of the rotor in the distributor, so it looks like the belt has not jumped/skipped any teeth.

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Reply to
Viper2

When you say "pulled the timing cover" do you mean you actually VERIFIED that both the cam and the auxiliary shaft (which drives the distributor) are perfectly timed with the crank, according to the marks? If not, or if you only checked one shaft or the other, don't be sure it didn't skip a tooth.

also, rather than just seeing if the rotor points generally in the right direction, you should use a timing light.

My hunch is a timing belt issue because if you have spark and fuel its NOT the wiring or the computer. Given that the timing belt was recently replaced, chances are very good that it wasn't quite tensioned properly and/or has stretched and jumped time.

Reply to
Steve

I actually checked the timing marks and looked at the rotor location to verify timing. As the car currently doesn't start, I have no way of putting a timing light on it at the moment to check the timing. Unless you suggest that I use the timing light while attempting to crank the engine over? Other than that, the timing appears to be dead-on, and the belt is snug, so there's plenty of tension there.

I am replacing the logic module at this point because it is the original one, and is dated Sept of 1986, as was the power module. I know several others have claimed that new (re-manufactured) power modules can sometimes also be bad, but I'm hoping/guessing that my replacement is OK. Now if the logic module checks out OK, I will let you all know.

Thanks for all your responses!

Reply to
Viper2

Back to basics. if you have fuel. spark and compression it should start, but do you know if all these are in proper time? Have you checked the timing belt for proper settings?

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Reply to
maxpower

The code 55 means it is the end of the sequence, When you disconnect the battery you will get a code 11 and 12 and once it is started the code 11 should go away. the code 12 will go away after about 15 key cycles, that code is a normal fault if the battery was disconnected

Glenn Beasley Chrysler Tech

Reply to
maxpower

Huh?....I guess you haven't done many of them have you? They are a piece of cake. As is replacing the head gasket. All in all, a great little car that is easy to repair, cheap to fix, and is a good little driver.

Ian

Reply to
shiden_kai

The FSM will tell you how to set the "coarse" ignition timing. I forget exactly how it works on the two-five, but you have to be able to see the camshaft (top) sprocket and line up one or two holes in it with something behind the sprocket. There are some other steps involved too. Then you get out the timing light.

I personally would not open the package of whatever you just ordered, so you can show the shop it was never used when you go to return it.

You could search E-bay for an FSM. I got one on CD for a 2001 Ford e-series van for $5 a few years ago.

Reply to
Bob M.

Ah, wasn't thinking before: did you run codes before you started randomly replacing parts, or do you only know the 12 is there after doing all that? If the latter, then it's likely meaningless in any case since I assume you disconnected the battery to replace the power module.

Reply to
Joe Pfeiffer

No, the suggestion was to check timing marks on the three sprockets. He was talking about valve timing, not ignition timing.

You're replacing the logic module for no better reason than its age????

Reply to
Joe Pfeiffer

Hey the guy has money, what can you say.

Reply to
maxpower

Exactly. Works great!

Reply to
Steve

Here is an explanation on how to check the valve timing.. (the easy way) courtesy of turbovan.net

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Reply to
me!

Okay, I have an '87 Reliant with a 2.5.

The last two times it suddenly didn't want to start, after having run perfectly the previous day, it was the MAP sensor. You may or may not get MAP sensor error codes when the sensor fails. However, what happens is that the car almost wants to start, but if it does start it dies right away.

Try disconnecting the electrical lead to the MAP sensor to see if the problem is the MAP sensor and/or its wiring. The '87 2.5 will not gladly want to start cold with the MAP sensor disconnected (especially if it's really cold), but it will start and it will run (with the Power Loss light lit, and a code 14 if I remember correctly). I drove for an hour to my favourite you-pick junkyard with the bad MAP sensor disconnected like this, and collected five MAP sensors from junked cars, because the MAP sensor Chrysler is now selling for $85 lasted me less than a year. (The internal design has changed a LOT between the original style MAP sensors, and the current Chrysler offering. I guess not for the better.)

You may also have flooded the engine by now. To clear flooding, floor the gas pedal while cranking. This is the procedure specified in the owner's manual, and it does work.

Replacing the cap, wires, plugs, fuel filter is reasonable maintenance, although none of these will cause a good-running car to suddenly not run at all. The coil and power module almost certainly didn't need to be replaced. The Hall effect sensor replacement gives you your old one as a spare, I guess.

So you can rule out all sorts of things like bad logic or power module, bad Hall effect sensor, bad wiring to the fuel injector.

No. On my '87 a code 12 is "battery recently disconnected". It goes away after some driving and restarts. And 55 is the standard end-of-codes. Because you have disconnected the computer, any other codes it may have detected are gone. However, this does prove that the distributor is working fine--otherwise you would have a code 11 as well.

Pointless expense at this point. There is no reason to suspect the logic module. I got a spare power and logic module from the junkyard when some bad wiring made the entire EFI system nonfunctional. But of course, now I have TWO good power and logic modules....

I suspect that the wiring is bad somewhere. With the exact symptoms, I'd say that the MAP sensor wiring is the first that should be examined. I wonder what effect a bad throttle position signal might have.

I expect that your EFI computers are trying to do their best with bad data, but they are not smart enough to figure out exactly what is bad, and how. (When the MAP sensor is actually disconnected, the logic module immediately figures that it must run without a MAP signal, rather than getting fooled by a false signal.)

You could recheck your timing belt, but I see no good reason for it to jump a tooth or two overnight.

Reply to
Ed T.

If the cam gear is out, the crank and distributor could still be set , you would be wasting your time trying to check with a timing lite.

Take the cover off the cam sproket and make sure all 3 are lined up!!

Reply to
maxpower

Agreed. I said check the spark timing after checking all 3 shafts.

Reply to
Steve

My bad, damn it sucks to get old,

Reply to
maxpower

"Viper2" wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com:

I have the 1987 FSM as I once owned a 1987 Plymouth Reliant. I don't care if I sell them or not, but they are a set of three and in perfect condition. If you are interested I will sell them for $30 plus shipping. Give me a good email if interested. I need a set for a 94 Acclaim and the guy wants $40 dollars plus shipping and I can't get him on the phone to verify the condition.

Reply to
tango

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