1995 Ply Voyager Xmission question

Which ENGINE? (2.5 litre 4-cylinder? 3.0, 3.3 or 3.8 litre V6?) Which TRANSMISSION? (5-speed manual? 3-speed auto? 4-speed auto?)

OK, so it's probably a 3.0 or bigger engine and a 4-speed automatic, but why do you make us guess?

This problem can be solved by proper diagnosis and repair, not by guessing and throwing random parts at the problem. No further accurate information can be given until you specify your van's configuration.

I'm not a competent tech but I am someone who just went through this transmission business so might throw out a few gotchas.

1. Have someone scan the transmission codes. A very, very good independent or an excellent mechanic should be able to do this. I could not find either so did find an excellent and honest dealer by asking around.

1. I updated the TCM, the Transmission Control Module. Apparently the clutch is EECM, an electronically something-or-other clutch controlled by software. My TCM needed an upgrade to its firmware. Again, I went to the dealer. Cottman is a bit of a joke. I called them up and they did not even know what I was talking about, at least the fellow answering the phone. An independent tranny guy also did not seem to follow my request for a firmware update or pretended not to follow.

2. 1995 is when Chyrsler released the firmware upgrade to the TCM for the A604 or the 4-speed tranny, that is 3 speeds with Overdrive, making it four speed, a temperamental tranny that needs Chrysler's own fluid, ATF+3 is safest, not ATF+4, not anybody else's. There are equivalents, but if something is wrong with the tranny, get the original fluid meant for that particular tranny. Weird but that's the way it is.

You might want to change fluid and filter if your car has not been serviced a lot. I would not be surprised if your had been serviced and someone put it in the wrong fluid. Very easy to happen since it was not known how fussy this tranny is for ATF+3 which is really only at the dealer's. Not Dexron. Not this or that but ATF+3. ATF+4 is synthetic and I would not trust that in a 1995.

You might be right about the solenoids. The firmware made the tranny shift into faster gears more quickly, avoiding the self-destruction of the torque converter. I do not remember anything about it shifting downwards.

But changing the fluid and filter, not a power flush which might destroy the tranny, the fellow can see if big chunks of metal are in the fluid, meaning something is really bad. And since this should be done on any used car that you just get, it's almost a no-brainer. And no wise jokes from anybody :)

What do you think though about the seals? Is that an urban legend or is it better to use a non-synthetic oil, like ATF +3 just in case there are some seals left-over or forgotten from a rebuild, a Cottman rebuild, that are rated for synthetics?

Or does it not matter? The +4 being synthetic should be more slippery and that should help the tranny. Is this what you mean by being far superior, beside lasting longer than non-synthetic ATF +3?

As an aside, I have been using an O-ring of the Buna-N type in a water filter housing. I have been lubing this with petroleum jelly. Ordinarily this would be a big no-no. But this particular seal is impervious to petroleum products. Now these are slightly more expensive than regular seals, but if these types of seals were used, relatively speaking, then yes, I would see your point. For almost 20 years, these Buna-N seals have neither leaked nor deteriorated, astonishingly well made.

My point is that the gains might not outweigh the losses if the tranny starts leaking. So I ask your advice on this. Does it matter if the tranny takes 10 years and leaks a few drops, probably not. But if the leaks occur internally, could that affect matters? I just don't know and read contradictory comments so you seem to have a good handle on this...

SORRY. . . My 95 Van is a 3.3 engine and automatic tranny. Ron C.

What about them?

ATF+3 and ATF+4 are both fully compatible with all seal materials found in any Chrysler transmission. Seal compatibility is not even on the radar screen as far as reasons to pick ATF+4 vs. ATF+3. ATF+4 has much greater thermal stability, much more consistent frictional characteristics across a much wider temperature range, a lower pour point for shift consistency at low temperatures, and greater resistance to shear-induced deterioration.

Full details directly from the horse's mouth:

Now that's very helpful information. I had read on the allpar.com about someone from Chrysler, not knowing how high a tech or engineer, who expressed concern about ATF+4. If I had known it did not matter, then I would have prefer ATF+4 for all the reasons you stated about, especially about temperature stability and frictional characteristics.

SAE Technical Papers Document Number: 982674 Title: Development and Introduction of ChryslerS New Automatic Transmission Fluid Meeting Where Presented: International Fall Fuels and Lubricants Meeting and Exposition, October

The price is about $12 snail mail which is par for the course, but $30 for a fax. I gather then they had tested the fluid extensively before releasing it to the market. And they had tested on older cars and you are satisfied with your cars going back to the early 60's which is good to hear.

This leads though to synthetics and engine oil. Now that is not the same as synthetic transmission oils? Is there any truth to synthetic engine oils hurting seals and the cars beginning to leak if used in older cars, such as mine, which is almost 200,000? What is your experience here? The same as with the synthetic transmission?

I am now using Conoco semi-synthetic 5W-30 [really by default from the dealer's oil change] and it seems fantastic. Less oil consumption and the engine is awfully smooth, knock on wood, considering the very high mileage. So my fears are abated sometwhat since it uses less oil. And if the dealer goes to a full synthetic, then fine. I can change the oil myself but it gives the dealer something to do and keeps us on a cordial basis. I tried the local independents, but it turned out quite badly.

Transmission Fluid

and Exposition, October

a fax. I gather then

And they had tested on

as synthetic transmission

cars beginning to leak if

experience here? The same

dealer's oil change] and it

knock on wood, considering

oil. And if the dealer

gives the dealer something

it turned out quite

DS:

Treeline:

Thanks for that great reference. Did I ruin my Maserati by putting in ATF+4 :) Seriously I gather my mature Voyager is exempt because it uses the A604/41TE 4-speed tranny then. So the jury exempt my particular tranny: "This bulletin applies to all transmissions manufactured by Chrysler except for

I'll stick then with the ATF+3 and mull over the ATF+4. I will also try to find out more about the Conoco semi-synthetic 5W-30 but it's difficult. It comes in bulk presumably to the dealer.

And here are the versions of 5W-30 that I narrowed it down to:

CONOCOPHILLIPS COMPANY (76 LUBRICANTS) 76 HIGH PERFORM FULL SYNTHETIC 5W-30 SM* CONOCOPHILLIPS COMPANY (76 LUBRICANTS) 76 SUPER SYNTHETIC BLEND 5W-30 SL* CONOCOPHILLIPS COMPANY (76 LUBRICANTS) 76 SUPER SYNTHETIC BLEND 5W-30 SM* CONOCOPHILLIPS COMPANY (76 LUBRICANTS) POINT PREMIER 5W-30 SL* CONOCOPHILLIPS COMPANY (76 LUBRICANTS) POINT PREMIER 5W-30 SM* CONOCOPHILLIPS COMPANY (CONOCO) HYDROCLEAR SUPER ALL SEASON DIAMOND 5W-30 SL* CONOCOPHILLIPS COMPANY (CONOCO) SUPER ALL SEASON SYNTHETIC BLEND 5W-30 SL* CONOCOPHILLIPS COMPANY (CONOCO) SUPER ALL SEASON SYNTHETIC BLEND 5W-30 SM* CONOCOPHILLIPS COMPANY (CONOCO) SUPER-J 5W-30 SL* CONOCOPHILLIPS COMPANY (CONOCO) SYNCON HIGH PERFORMANCE SYNTHETIC 5W-30 SL* CONOCOPHILLIPS COMPANY (CONOCO) SYNCON HIGH PERFORMANCE SYNTHETIC 5W-30 SM* CONOCOPHILLIPS COMPANY (KENDALL MOTOR OIL) KENDALL GT-1 FULL SYNTHETIC 5W-30 SL/CF* CONOCOPHILLIPS COMPANY (KENDALL MOTOR OIL) KENDALL GT-1 FULL SYNTHETIC 5W-30 SM*

CONOCOPHILLIPS COMPANY (KENDALL MOTOR OIL) KENDALL GT-1 HIGH MILEAGE SYNTHETIC BLEND 5W-30 SL

Must be about 14 different types of 5W-30 from Conoco!!! This stuff ain't easy to really nail down. The dealer mentioned Kendall and Conoco so I suspects it one those three but? The HIGH MILEAGE SYNTHETIC BLEND sounds ideal. Now where does one get that? I notice that there is not a HIGH MILEAGE full synthetic blend. I can see it now: Mr. Dealer please, I'd like to top off my car, give me some of your spare 5W-30....

Allpar is a terrific resource, but there is not much vetting for accuracy of technical information.

Definitely. The paper is a very interesting read, full of comparisons between ATF+3 and ATF+4.

The myth that synthetic oils cause leaks in old engines has been floating around since synthetic oil first hit the consumer market in the early '70s. Like most myths, it has at its core a kernel of truth: The first synthetic oils available were 5W20 and 5W30, which were very much thinner than the conventional oils widely used at the time (1970s). So, existing small leaks leaked more of the thinner oil, and the myth that synthetic oil causes or worsens leaks was born. Over the years, handwavers added all kinds of nonsense about synthetic oil dissolving sludge that helps the engine seal, etc.

Engines that leak conventional oil will generally leak synthetic oil. Engines that don't leak conventional oil will generally not leak synthetic oil.

That's a lot of miles; you must be doing something right!

DS