2004 sebring 2.4l 16 v engine 118000 kms on clock

Don't know if this relates to your car or not, but receipts don't prove anything regarding oil/filter changes. It is not uncommon at all for consumers to be charges for such services and the work not done - and that includes from dealers. I have personally witnessed this with oil and filter changes more than once (these places rely on the consumer being ignorant or just not checking behind them), as well as videos being available from sting/exposé operations proving same. Again - not saying that is the case for yours, but it wouldn't at all be unusual.

You might do a cleanout using Marvel Mystery Oil. Put 8 ozs. in with an oil change, and repeat forever for a gradual controlled cleanout and future preventative. Change the oil and filter again at 1500 miles the first time after you add the MMO. The noise could be from a lifter with a piece of dirt in it that might purge itself out with some cleaning

Also consider that accessory belts and their idler/tensioner pulleys can mimic valve train noises - the pulley bearings do wear out and should be replaced periodically (I do mine every other belt change).

How many miles on the engine? The timing belt is due for change at 60k miles, and the engine is interference, meaning that if it breaks, there will be very expensive engine damage. Water pump is timing belt driven and should be replaced at the same time. It is possible that the timing belt or its tensioner are making noise too.

Find out if there are any Technical Service Bulletins (TSB's) on it for valve train noise/issues.

The 2.4L in my Stratus just reached 90,000 miles. I am planning on a timing belt change at 95,000.

Since the OP has a 2004, it would have the newer "wind up" timing belt tensioner. Other than a timing belt change, I can't think of anything else this engine would need.

-KM

thanks for the advice Bill. Where would one go to find the TSB"S? the engine has 118000 kms which is around 70,000 miles I think.

"Bill Putney" wrote: > aquatame wrote: > > I have recently bought a 2004 Sebring with the 2.4L 16 V > engine. > > I really like the car but have noticed a ticking noise which > is worse > > when the car is warmed up. I am quite sure it is a cam > follower. > > The car has been dealer serviced and the oil has been > changed every > > 5000 kms.... Oil is still a golden colour. > > Last oil change done by canadian tyre...... > > The previous owner had it since new and has all the > reciepts..... > > Is there much chance that canadian tyre could have used the > wrong > > viscosity oil which is causing the noise? > > Are these engines prone to this problem? > > Would this be an expensive thing to replace? > > Could i do it if i get a manual? > > I would really appreciate any advice. > > > > Thanks > > Jon > > > > Don't know if this relates to your car or not, but receipts > don't prove > anything regarding oil/filter changes. It is not uncommon at > all for > consumers to be charges for such services and the work not > done - and > that includes from dealers. I have personally witnessed this > with oil > and filter changes more than once (these places rely on the > consumer > being ignorant or just not checking behind them), as well as > videos > being available from sting/exposé operations proving same. > Again - not > saying that is the case for yours, but it wouldn't at all be > unusual. > > You might do a cleanout using Marvel Mystery Oil. Put 8 ozs. > in with an > oil change, and repeat forever for a gradual controlled > cleanout and > future preventative. Change the oil and filter again at 1500 > miles the > first time after you add the MMO. The noise could be from a > lifter with > a piece of dirt in it that might purge itself out with some > cleaning > > Also consider that accessory belts and their idler/tensioner > pulleys can > mimic valve train noises - the pulley bearings do wear out and > should be > replaced periodically (I do mine every other belt change). > > How many miles on the engine? The timing belt is due for > change at 60k > miles, and the engine is interference, meaning that if it > breaks, there > will be very expensive engine damage. Water pump is timing > belt driven > and should be replaced at the same time. It is possible that > the timing > belt or its tensioner are making noise too. > > Find out if there are any Technical Service Bulletins (TSB's) > on it for > valve train noise/issues. > > -- > Bill Putney > (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet > in my > address with the letter 'x')

Some reason you are ignoring the recommended 60k mile change interval given in the Gates book (I assume it is the correct info.)? You do realize what happens if the belt craps out? Perhaps yours is a California car, which has a 100k interval?

The part that goes bad on tensioners regardless of how they are adjusted are the bearings for the tensioner pulley. I can't tell if you are or are not planning on replacing that with the belt, but you definitely should. Also - the water pump is driven by the timing belt (again, if the Gates Timing Belt Guide is correct). It would be wrong not to also replace the water pump when you replace the belt, particularly at close to 100k miles since you will already be in there. Again, the consequences of the water pump going out (say, locking up) would be expensive, as people have often found out on cars with the water pump stupidly driven by the t-belt (or chain, as in the 2.7L Chrysler engine).

The last place I'd get an oil change is Canadian Tire (CTC).

Also I recommend a higher grade of oil, such as Castrol GTX. What oil type was the dealer using, synthetic?

The change interval for the timing belt in the owners manual specifies

When my 2.4 had 53,000 miles, I had to have headgasket changed. It was a common problem for early 2.4's. I asked the shop if it would make sense to go ahead and change the timing belt. They assured me that it was still in good condition, and would most likely make it to the recommended 101,000 change interval.

Is my owner's manual incorrect?

Thanks,

KM

I'm sure your owner's manual is correct. The Gates manual shows 90k,

For the OP's engine, I had looked at the wrong engine in the Gates guide. The OP's change interval is 90,000 miles according to Gates.

Which is patently bizarre. If the timing belt on a 1990 2.5 were to break, the engine spins harmlessly to a stop with all the pistons clearing all the valves. New belt and you're on your way. Conversely, if the belt breaks on a 2.4, you're in for new valves (at least) and maybe a complete overhaul. 2.5s weren't notorious belt-breakers, either.

Not sure why that makes it bizarre -- I look at those figures and see that either timing belt materials are improving or Chrysler is getting less conservative with its change interval.

The change interval should be set on making sure it's changed before it breaks, not on how much damage happens if it does break.

You may be right, but it would not be unusual or necessarily wrong on there being some influence on the chosen change interval by the severity of the consequences of a timing belt breaking.

In fact, as an engineer and engineering manager, I used to be involved in design FMEA's (Failure Modes and Effects Analysis) for parts being designed for sale to Delphi (GM). The analysis was a joint or coordinated effort by Delphi and the supplier (Ford/Visteon and Chrysler have the same process as dictated by, at the time, QS9000 - I have no idea what they use now).

When a potential failure mode for a given design and manufacturing process of a part was identified, there were three categories that were quantified and multiplied by each other to determine an RPN (Risk Priority Number). One of the categories was (likelihood of "Occurence" ("O"), another was "Severity" (of the effects of the failure) ("S"), and the third was "Detectability" ("D") (of a the failure when it occurred).

The number chosen for the two categories for the particular failure went from (IIRC) 1 thru 10. For the likelihood of failure, the higher the number, the greater the likelihood of that failure occurring. For severity, the higher the number, the more severe the effect of such a failure (1 being "not discernable", 9 and 10 being two different degrees of safety and/or government regulation violation). (You can Google "FMEA", and find tutorials and other info. on this kind of stuff - in fact, because I've been away from it for about 7 years, I was a little fuzzy on some of the info. and did just that to refresh my memory when composing this post - yes - I cheated.)

The RPN (the product of the 3 numbers) established the priority of tweaking the particular design or process failures until all RPN's were below an acceptable threshold. Also - there were certain over-riding rules. For example, a 9 or 10 in severity was an automatic "MUST FIX" as long as, say, likelihood of occurrence was above 2 or 3 (I forget the exact details, but you get the idea. For example, for any failure in a brake or wiper motor application, as long as the there was some credible likelihood of occurrence (a brake pad triggering a nuclear explosion would not be a credible failure), that particular failure was put in the "Must Fix" category.

It is a formalized and expensive process to be undertaken by a technical committee (buzzword: Team) defining the type of thought process we all go thru individually every day - for example - if you're on a family vacation, compare what your actions (both immediately and delayed) might or might not be if a knob fell off the radio on your car vs. if steam started pouring out from under the hood. It goes back to severity of consequences of taking or not taking action.

Anyway - I can see such a process resulting in two different change intervals the manufacturer decides to specify on two different engines with timing belts with identical statistical failure periods, the difference being the severity of a timing belt failure depending on if an engine is interference or not. I'm not saying a given manufacturer would *necessarily* specify two different change intervals in the two scenarios where the *only* difference was interference or not interference, but it would not surprise me at all if that were typically the case. I'd be just as surprised if it wasn't the case.

Thanks, that's a lot of interesting information. Remember, though, that what Steve was referring to was a case where the interference engine had a much longer change interval than the non-interference.

True. I guess it was this that maybe I was responding to: "The change interval should be set on making sure it's changed before it breaks, not on how much damage happens if it does break." That gets back to the severity thing (independent of the examples, unfortunately for the case I was making, that had just been discussed where the situation was reversed).

But - yeah - as you said, the change intervals got longer over the years

- probably due to the improvements in the belt technology. I don't think it was because the manufacturers were getting more conservative with their numbers, at least not in all cases. If anything, in those days where 50k and 60k were the typical intervals, the manufacturers were possibly stretching things trying to keep the intervals as long as 60k.

I remember Subaru had to put out some notices (I guess they were also called TSB's back then) on some late 80's engines (E82 engine I think) to shorten the change interval back to what it had been a couple of years earlier. Don't remember the exact numbers, but it was something like they had extended it to 70 or 80k, and backed them off to 50 or 60k due to some customers belts breaking.

Sure wish they'd figure out a way to gear drive the overhead cams, or at least quit driving the water pumps off the timing chain engines like on my 2.7.

And I can see why that would be correct -- though in this case, losing a timing belt on even a non-interference engine would frustrate an owner enough that it would be a Really Bad Thing.

Yeah -- the external belt drive water pumps are a lot easier to get at...

Now - you and I are resourceful and whichever the case, we get by cheaper (and probably avoid the problem in the first place by doing the belt pre-emptively or having a good idea of how far we can delay it without too much risk. But for the typical consumer who knows nothing and is at the mercy of whomever to put things back together (or sell them a new car) for a huge pile of money - that's what you have to look at.

I think you're agreeing with me here...

Conversely, if

Not true. The 2.4l DOHC built for the 4dr. and convertibles will not bend the valves. While the 2.4l SOHC built for the two door coupes will bend the valves.

Bryan

Uh.... I only half agree. Yes, the change interval should be set to insure that only a small percentage of belts ever break, BUT the amount of damage that might happen should DEFINITELY skew the change interval shorter for high-risk engines. If I were setting the recommendation and putting the company's warranty at risk, I'd pad a high-risk engine by at least 20,000 miles compared to a free-wheeling engine with the same probability of breaking the belt.

You and Bill both make good points about tying the change interval to the damage done. I guess where I'm coming from is that maintenance intervals don't cost the company money, and anything that might render a vehicle undriveable if it breaks (even if it doesn't cause any actual damage) ought to have a change interval such that the probability of failure is really, really low. Today we expect our cars to be reliable enough that any story that includes "...so there I was, stuck on the side of the road.." is likely to mean one less customer for the company for the rest of that customer's life.

We both know what bell curves look like. We both know that there is no such thing as zero percent failures with something like a rubber belt doing the job that timing belts do. When you talk in terms of parts per million, while the bad p.r. from a broken belt takes its toll on customer loyalty, there also is an impact on that loyalty on how often maintenance that costs several hundred dollars and requires alternate transportation is required. Then there's an additional cost (on customer loyalty) of an engine that has to be replaced. All of these, though talked about in fractions of a percent or parts per million, have to be balanced out to compete with other auto makers who could be doing an incrementally better or worse job in choosing those balances.