300M timing belt replacement

Our '02 300M is due to have its timing belt replaced soon. The dealer -- which is no longer a Chrysler dealer -- quoted me $750 to replace the timing belt and water pump, presumably using over-priced "genuine Mopar" parts.

The parts at AutoZone are less than $200, but, having read through the relevant section of the service manual, I don't think this is a job I want to tackle myself. Am I overestimating the difficulty?

What is a reasonable price to have this job done by an independent shop?

Perce

Reply to
Percival P. Cassidy
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I just had my Stratus done recently. Alot of the cost was in parts. There was an upgrade to the belt tensioner from 2003 that was included. This also required that the timing belt covers be replaced too.

If your 300M only needs the belt and water pump, $750 seems high to me.

-KM

Reply to
KirkM

Actually, for a dealer, it isn't too far out of line - depending on exactly what is being replaced (probably not much - keep reading).

I had my 3.2 (same exact engine as your 3.5, just different bore/piston size) done about 3 years ago. I purchased my own OEM parts from an on-line discount dealer (30% below list plus actual shipping vs. list

+20 or 30% plus sales tax from a local dealer) - total parts was about $360. I included belt, water pump, tensioner pulley, hydraulic tensioner (which alone is almost $100), both accessory belts, both radiator hoses, and thermostat (a bear to replace on these cars).

Took the parts to an independent shop that frankly underbid the job at $300 flat rate (should have been probably $400-450).

So I got by for about $700 total parts + labor.

Two things to consider: (1) Most likely your dealer isn't including the hydraulic tensioner for that price (most people re-use the old one, and frankly, they very seldom give problems) - but make darn sure you have the timing belt tensioner *pulley* replaced - that *is* a finite-life part. Nor will they include the accessory belts, radiator hoses, and t-stat unless you pay more. (2) Whether you have the dealer do it, or an independent shop do it, or DIY, I *highly* recommend using OEM parts for the belt and the water pump. I hang out on three LH car-specific forums, and there is story after story after story on the belt pitch accuracy/length being off enough to require re-timing of the cam sprockets (requires special tool

- no substitute or makeshift tool for this particular tool) *and* the water pumps failing very early and/or not fitting right - and those problems were even with the Gates parts that everybody (including myself) usually swears by).

So you have to decide: Go with that price knowing you'll get OEM parts, but you will not get new rad. hoses, t-stat, or hydraulic t-belt tensioner, or get your own OEM parts from a good online discount dealer, like

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(yes - they are still in business - 30% below list - no gimmicks) and end up replacing a lot more critical parts for the same $$ if you can get a good independent shop to accept your parts and just charge labor (probably about $400-450).

And I repeat: on this particular job, do not use aftermarket parts - even Gates (except accessory belts and hoses). T-stat: OEM - gets installed pointing towards engine - which is opposite of the factory t-stat (different design) - if someone doesn't believe me, have them check the FSM. Many people on the LH car forums did the opposite and had overheating problems - turned it around: good to go.

You can knock about $80 of the parts prices I gave if you re-use your old hydraulic tensioner (not the tensioner pulley, the hydraulic tensioner), and that would be an OK tradeoff - like I said, that particular part is pretty reliable and long-lived.

Come see us at

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FWIW . . .

Reply to
Bill Putney

I just replaced the tensioner and belt myself in my 94 T&C AWD. The most difficult part about the job was figuring out how to get at the tensioner bolt, it took an hour or two of false starts. The service manual was not helpful and all the online posts assume non-AWD and tell you to use long extensions and u-joints and such nonsense.

I ended up simply using a standard wrench and reaching up in there and doing it by feel. Of course I had to flip the wrench back and forth 50 times or so since I could only move the nut a few degrees. I have gear wrenches but they wouldn't have helped here.

If I had gone into the job knowing the trick it would have been 2 hours, tops, in the driveway.

Total on parts was a bit less than $100. I've done a water pump before on that van and it's easy.

$750 sounds way high to me. However, since the economy is not doing well right now, a lot of people are having older cars fixed rather than scrapped, and most mechanics have plenty of work, and can pick and choose - hence the higher price.

Ted

Reply to
Ted Mittelstaedt

Different chassis, different engine, different belt, different-different-different.

Of course you think $750 is too high... you have no idea what you're talking about.

Reply to
aarcuda69062

I think you'll agree that my post is apples to apples.

Reply to
Bill Putney

No problem at all with your post Bill. Very accurate and to the point.

On the other hand, Ted seems to have a severe case of "I changed a belt once."

Reply to
aarcuda69062

Ted was describing serpentine belt tensioner change on what is most likely a 3.3 or 3.8.

My 1993 is on it's 3rd one. I am hoping to be able to change it myself next time, so Ted's post had some use for me.

The 3.3/3.8 using a timing chain, so it is probably good until the engine needs rebuilding.

-KM

Reply to
KirkM

I hope you have better luck with yours than we had with ours. Our '96 Stratus ES (6-cyl. Mitsushitty engine) had had its timing belt replaced (allegedly) when the water pump was replaced at about 55K miles. At 85K the belt broke and the vehicle was deemed to be not worth fixing. Several people have suggested that the problem was that they did not replace the idler puller and/or tensioner when they replaced the belt -- if indeed they did replace the belt.

Maybe they were including replacing the pulley and tensioner.

BTW, Autozone does not sell replacement tensioners for the 300M, so I wasn't including that item in my cost of parts. And I hadn't thought about the thermostat and hoses and other belts.

Perce

Reply to
Percival P. Cassidy

------- Snip ---------------------------------------------

When I bought both my Stratus and Cirrus, I steered clear of the 2.5, based on the info posted on this NG. The Stratus has an early 2.4, so I had to have the head gasket replaced using the extended warranty that I had.

The water pump started leaking, so it made sense to replace the timing belt at the same time.

------- Snip------------------------------------------------

-KM

Reply to
KirkM

Pulley (also called tensioner, which confuses a lot of people) maybe/probably; hydraulic tensioner almost certainly was not included in their price - but ask them.

That is correct - the hydraulic tensioner is a dealer-only item.

Reply to
Bill Putney

Is the water pump driven by the chain?

Reply to
Bill Putney

I didn't deny that. Your assuming I was talking about a timing belt, but since as everyone knows the T&C of that year uses a 3.8, I figured I didn't need to spell out that I was talking about the fan belt. The OP said he looked up the procedure in a service manual, so please give him some credit for a modicum of intelligence.

My post was merely to illustrate that it's not unusual for a DIYer to end up spending quite a lot of time on a part of a job that would take a pro who has done the same job many times, not a lot of time to do. In short, that sort of thing comes with the territory of being a DIYer, and if you want to be one, you shouldn't be afraid of that.

However, just because it takes a DIYer 6 times longer than the pro to do the same job, doesn't mean that he shouldn't do it. What matters is that the job is done properly. If a DIYer can do it properly and take

8 hours to do it, that's just as good as a pro taking 2 hours and doing it properly.

Most people don't make money 24x7. They make money 40 hours a week and the rest of the hours in the week they don't make anything at all. If a person can save $250 by spending 8 of those non-paid hours doing the job themself, vs paying a pro for it, it's like they are getting paid an extra $250 for that week.

I think it is high because the OP said the parts cost $200 and while you may be made out of money, I personally think $550 is a lot of money.

The way I look at these things is on one hand I can remove $550 from my wallet and just let it float off into the breeze. On the other I can take my weekend where I'm not being paid diddly shit and replace a belt. The fact a pro could do a job that I normally DON'T do faster than me doesn't intimidate me and make my penis shrink down to a pencil.

Ted

Reply to
Ted Mittelstaedt

No. The 3.3 and 3.8L uses a simple serpentine belt driven water pump. (And I agree that the water pump and belts are much more easily changed compared to the 3.2 and 3.5L engines.

Bob

Reply to
Bob Shuman

Uh, no, look above where I state "different belt."

Since I have 20 years of experience working on the 3.3/3.8, the only person making assumptions is you.

Also, since I have 17 years of experience working on the 3.5, I'll spell it out for you. Quoted from Mitchell On Demand

Timing belt $155.00 Tensioner pulley $ 70.00 Tensioner $136.00 Water pump $109.00 Labor 3.2hr@$90 $288.00 Total $758.00

The OP said the parts cost $200 at -AutoZone- (good grief) Do you honestly think it's worth risking a $5000 engine job by saving $270 on parts buying cheap crap from AutoZone? So, while you may think $550 is a lot of money, you ignore the facts and choose price over value.

The quote he got was dead nuts on. If he so chooses to go the cheap parts route, he's been warned by Bill and myself. He'll be lucky to get

30,000 mile out of that rubber band AZ sells labeled as a timing belt.

As for your cheerleading and encouragement for him to do it himself...

Apparently you're not aware that the harmonic balancer needs to be removed in order to R&R the timing belt, I have doubts that the OP possesses the necessary puller ($200-$300) to remove it nor does he have a reasonable means to remove (and more importantly, install) the bolt that holds it on. And since the accessory drive belts are manually adjusted, I doubt that he has the necessary proper belt tensioning gauge ($200) to properly adjust them. Oh, the water pump bolts, they are 6 millimeter bolts, he'll need an accurate inch-pound torque wrench for those. (more $$$.$$)

In spite of the fact that you have at some time in life, successfully changed your own serpentine belt, the OP is best off to ignore your life tales and realize that he's probably in over his head, bought a vehicle that needs a $750 maintenance service at 105K miles and just suck it up. 'Cuz what you're selling is now where close to what he's needin'.

Reply to
aarcuda69062

He said that the parts were $200 at Autozone. You're comparing apples and oranges. By the time a local dealer bills you the OEM parts at 20 to 30% above list when you could have gotten the same OEM parts from an online discount dealer for 30% below list, you're definitely at more than $200 in parts and the labor part of that isn't $550, not by dealer math anyway.

Reply to
Bill Putney

Exactly. And my further point was that you can get the OEM parts for less than half those prices at an online discount dealer (trade shipping for sales tax), and lose the warranty coverage that the local installing dealer would give you on those parts.

Hmm - I see that that price list actually does include the hydraulic tensioner. That's good.

Actually I bought the right kind of puller and crank stopper in a kit off ebay for, IIRC, $65 - worked great and I didn't have to pull the radiator. Plus many auto parts store have them as free loaners or rentals.

Reply to
Bill Putney

If you can find a shop that will install customer supplied parts, or will do it and not raise their labor rate to compensate for the lost revenue on the parts. (some do)

I have no way of knowing if the hydraulic tensioner was included in the OPs estimate, but for purposes of comparison. Anyway, that is how I would/have done the job. Even on my own 3.2

Works if you have enough time in advance to procure a deal off of e-bay, if you don't get ripped off, if the tool isn't broken/pieces missing, if the tool isn't out on loan.

Reply to
aarcuda69062

That would not surprise me. I had already thought of that.

The "less than $200" was for belt, tensioner pulley and water pump. AutoZone doesn't sell the hydraulic tensioner, and I did not know that it is advisable to replace it as well; the Service Manual doesn't suggest that it should be replaced at the same time -- or the pulley and the water pump, come to that, so I don't know whether the (now ex-) dealer's quote included the pulley and tensioner. I did specifically ask for the water pump to be replaced at the same time.

From what I have read on the 300M forum to which Bill Putney referred me, it appears that replacing the thermostat and radiator hoses at the same time is advisable.

That was one of the things that made me uneasy about tackling the job myself.

I still have 10K miles to think about it. I'll get a quote from one of the still-authorized Chrysler dealers too. People have said that it was cheaper to pay for the gas to and from the one 20 miles away than to pay the local one's higher prices.

Perce

Reply to
Percival P. Cassidy

I checked back with that (ex-) dealer and found that they were not including replacing the pulley and hydraulic tensioner -- $70 (in stock) and $150 (special order) respectively.

Perce

Reply to
Percival P. Cassidy

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