Can oil & filters change cause enging fire?

On Tue, 02 Aug 2005 17:11:36 -0700, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:

Another one of my mistakes is that I have only liability insurance on this vehicle. But I went to this repair shop nonetheless today, which is an automotive department of big and respectable department stores chain, and talked to the manager of the automotive. I asked him why it took so long to change the air filter and was there any problem doing it. - I mentioned in another message in this thread that I had to wait about half an hour extra, while I observed mechanic doing something under the hood all this time between the engine and the battery, to the left of the battery. He said he is aware of some difficulties that technician had replacing the air filter since, as he said, "it is located not as on other cars" and is "difficult to replace" and that in fact technician reported that difficulty and that somebody else was sent to help him. I asked the manager why they didn't tell me of the difficulties, to which he didn't answer. All this took place after I said that there was a problem with the car after the repair, but I didn't say what exactly the problem was, but at this point he asked me what it was. I told him about the fire. He looked astonished, but on the other hand in the conversation before this point he admitted the difficulty and lack of knowledge by the mechanic regarding the location of the air filter and its replacement. Now the interesting part: the location where I first seen the fire when I stopped and opened the hood, was the left side of the battery, where they claimed the air filter was. I checked the picture in owner manual and sure enough there is black plastic lid at that location, but at the point when I opened the hood and seen the fire and dripping plastic on the left side of the battery that lid wasn't there at all and that whole place was sort of empty. I don't know how it could have happened, but it looks like the fire had first started at the air filter contrary to the previous discussion in this thread about oil or fuel leak causing it. I even went to the tow company parking lot where the vehicle is stored, looked at the engine again and made pictures.

This poses the new question: Can the air filter catch fire if incompetently replaced or if wrong model is used? I heard the engine backfire mentioned as possible reason for something like this. Does anybody have any information?

Another thing that I will have to do is to find an expert, that could give a conclusion what caused the engine fire and whether it is related to the air and oil filter change. What remains to be seen is whether Chrysler dealership will agree to give such an expert opinion. It is probably the insurance company that would normally do such expert appraisal, but I mentioned that I don't have comprehensive, so I'll have to find the expert myself.

Many thanks to you and other participants for valuable advice and information.

IP.

I agree - it is probably much easier for the expert then it seems for the layman. I'll try to get the expert opinion tomorrow.

See also my other message in this thread with Message-Id: About the possible connection of air filter replacement, not oil filter as was previously discussed and as I initially thought.

IP.

While everything is fresh, sit down and write EVERYTHING DOWN, the date, the time, the names of the people you talked to, the names of the techs at the oil change place, what they said, every last thing.

incompetently

I don't think so. However, being as it is near the battery, it is possible that somehow one of the metal filter hold-down-clips might not have been snapped back on to the filter box, maybe fell off, and somehow got wedged into the positive battery cable and grounded it out against the frame. That would dump a huge current into the battery cable, heating it up, causing the cable to catch fire, and the rest is history.

Ted

The first two things I'd be curious about are whether they actually put the right filter on the vehicle, and whether it is tight. Third would be whether the filler cap was put back on.

Even if the filler cap was left off it would not allow oil out of the valve cover, some slight vapors only. If the recall was not done and the oil change jockey hit the fuel rail and caused it to leak afterwards, that would not be the fault of the person changing the oil. If the original OP took his car to the dealer for service, they should have ran a VEIP to see if there are any outstanding recalls that apply.A good investigator would be able to determine the cause if they were interested And if the fire originated at the battery , it would not be a fuel or an oil leak, possible low electrolyte in the battery causing battery to explode

I'm NOT familiar with the 3.3 and 3.8 Mopars - but if, when the oil is changed, oil can run onto ANY part of the exhaust, the danger of a fire within minutes is there. I generally wipe down the exhaust components that get oily with a rag, and then give a squirt of something like "brake-kleen" for good measure to remove as much oil as possible.- making ABSOLUTELY SURE I don't leave a rag behind. The fact hot oil was smelled moments after startup would lead me to believe there WAS some oil on the exhaust. On my current Pontiac it is impossible to change the oil and filter without oiling the exhaust. My old Aerostar was almost as bad, and the Merc Duratec is even worse. I have seen several under-hood fires caused by oil on the exhaust in the last 35 years or so - as well as a few from shop rags left behind.

This would NOT show low oil after the fact, or turn on any warning lamps.

If it was an electrical short, it is most likely that SOMETHING would have misbehaved. The "preponderence of evidence" would lead me to believe it was a fire caused by excessive oil on a hot engine part.

Definitely NOT the only way - and an EXTREMELY unlikely thing to happen on today's vehicles.The batteries are generally so well covered, particularly on Chryslers, that some rather extensive dismantling is required to get to them. And as stated before, a short would GENERALLY cause the vehicle to misbehave by lowering the voltage to the ECM. Not saying it is impossible - but saying it's the "only" way it could happen is WAY off base.

More like a fine mist.

Oil on a hot engine WILL bust into flames... I set one on fire once while spilling a little oil while add some to a super hot engine while on a road trip ( no damage). Transmission fluid dripping onto the exhaust will start a fire in no time (smoked a jeep that way). One of my Lady friends lost her 89 Caravan not to long ago when it bust into flames as she was driving done the road... official listed cause from fire dept was oil leaking onto exhaust.

On Wed, 03 Aug 2005 22:33:21 -0400, nospam.clare.nce wrote:

Mine was 1999 Town & Country. The battery and air filter assembly are very close together with the battery not covered from above. As I mentioned in earlier posts in this thread, the first thing I noticed after opening the hood is that there was fire and dripping plastic on the left side of the battery, but the battery itself wasn't destroyed or much damaged at this point. What was surprising is that the air filter assembly just wasn't there as if it burned first and the dripping plastic on the battery was what remained of it. It all happened in a second or two - I quickly closed the hood fearing that something will explode in my face, but that was my impression. When I looked at the burned engine compartment the next day, it confirmed my first impression: air filter assembly including air intake tube was completely burned down - nothing remained. It almost looks like the air filter assembly was the first to catch fire and later on its plastic and the battery burned. I talked to Chrysler tech and dealer's service department and showed him the pictures. He said there might be many reasons, the most likely one in his opinion being, some disturbed wiring causing the short circuit. It was mentioned in this thread that short circuit would cause something to misbehave and be noticeable while I was still driving, but the fact is that no warning lights were there, the headlights were normal etc.. It looks all the more mysterious to me, almost as if something flammable was left right under the air filter lid or spilled nearby during repairs. I also looked underneath the engine, under the vehicle - no visible traces of fire there and the area where exhaust pipes are leaving the engine block is not charred or burned

- it looks like it all started not there, but near air filter and battery.

Chrysler tech I talked to also said that I should demand that repair shop send their insurance claim adjuster to appraise the damage and pay me for the loss of a vehicle. He said that the case like this is exactly what they insure against and the fact that it happened immediately after their "repairs" is enough of a proof to allow to win the case against them even if they refuse to file the claim. He also said that I shouldn't even bother to investigate what exactly ignited since the fact that it happened right after they worked on the vehicle is enough. I think what he said might be true - Chrysler repair department probably has similar insurance and might have had similar cases. Also, I think tech's opinion matches some opinions expressed in this thread. This is probably the course I will follow.

...

An improperly installed oil filter will cause an immediate fire. Look at the Honda CRV fiasco in which the oil filters taken off during an oil change left the o-ring on the oil filter connector. Then when the techs didn't watch what they were doing put on an oil filter over top of that. Then the customer would drive out of the dealership and there crv's would catch fir from the oil spraying out of the two o-rings onto the exhaust.

Perhaps the "On Fire" light was burned out?

Steve B.

Are you joking or is there indeed such a light? If not, this looks like a good idea to me - some sort of indication that under-hood temperature is abnormally high.

IP.

The problem is that the vehicle doesn't have comprehensive insurance. I'm a good driver, but the insurance doesn't recognize that and asks exorbitant prices for comprehensive since I've been driving in US for only four years, so I decided to assume the risk, but now this doesn't seem like a terribly good idea :-( In any case, there seems to be some hope still. I'll only have to deal with the repair shop directly instead of through insurance and that might be much more hassle. - Insurance companies deal with such cases en-mass, but for a single case like this it is even difficult to find a lawyer. The van's value is probably 9K and lawyers seem to prefer slip & fall cases where they can exaggerate the damage to anything like this where the damage is clearly determined.

I talked to the Chrysler tech at the dealership yesterday and showed him the photos of the damage. He said that disturbed wiring might be likely cause but he also said that in cases like this it is almost irrelevant, but what is important is that they worked on the car and then minutes after they finished it went on fire. This by itself almost totally excludes the coincidence. He said that this should be taken care of by shop's insurance. It looks like he is very familiar with the subject - most likely Chrysler service department has similar insurance to take care of possible cases like this one.

IP.

Most cars should probably have a "SON OF A B**CH!! HEY A**HOLE!!" light.

Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my adddress with the letter 'x')

When the cutlines around the hood start glowing orange, that's your light right there.

nate

Well, what do you know, that's just what I said 2 days ago:

"The fact that the fire started minutes after you left the oil change place means that there's a preponderance of the evidence that a mistake they made caused the fire"

I'll give you some more unsolicited advice - the longer you waste time yakking this up with us, convenient service departments, lawyers offices, and so on, instead of doing what I mentioned and calling the oil change place shop's insurance company and filing a claim, the harder it's going to be to get the claim paid.

But I won't mind if you check this with the Chrysler tech at the dealer - again. ;-)

Ted