Chrysler 300 vs. Dodge Magnum?

I don't know the figures but wagons never sell as well as sedans, and if you really need a wagon, the eye catching design of the Magnum reduces loading room significantly. Thus the sedan version, Charger, is due out soon.

I've seen about 5 here in NJ. They're really nice and I'm considering that or the 300C.

I wish they made the Charger they were showing at one of the car shows several years ago and not the one they're going to be offering.

Oh, well.

Ken

Tom Gale's Charger concept that was shown on the car show circuit in

1999. Yes, a great looking car and much better looking than the brick that will be coming out.

Chrysler had a LOT of milage left in the LH platform (including RWD capability) that the Daimler merger effectively took an axe to.

Truth is, we would have seen lots of new cars from Chrysler in 2002 had there been no interference from Daimler. And they would have been great looking cars - not the "novelty" look as in the LX platform.

In the late 1990's, Chrysler was making serious progress in upscale branding and image, but that was all flushed down the toilet when Daimler took over. Chrysler was then relegated to making volume models that maxed out at $30 to $35k so as not to compete with Mercedes. Trouble is, Daimler cut off their nose to spite their face. More upscale cars from Chrysler would have competed with Jap cars more than Merc, and Chrysler could have stolen market share from, say, Cadillac or Infinity with more classy Chrysler cars.

Chrysler, with the 300M, was looking at the export market in Europe. Daimler would have NONE of that, and did absolutely NOTHING to help the 300M to be marketed in Europe. The "in-your-face" typically American style of the 300C garantees that there will be NO demand in Europe for the LX cars, which is exactly what Daimler wants.

Sounds like Daimler is a little nervous ;-)

Is the new Charger still going to be made available? What about the 425 HP engine? I guess if they do make it for the Charger then this might be an option for the 300C?

I wonder if the Pacifica will get the Hemi soon. Seems like people here are stating that the current engine doesn't provide enough power.

Ken

Plans have already been made to put the 425 HP Hemi in the AWD 300.

Daimler would rather NOT build the Charger. They DO NOT want to create more cars for Dodge. Daimler is reacting to pressure from Dodge dealers - they want an LX car under the Dodge badge. Daimler-Chrysler won't admit it - the official story is that Dieter Zeitche gave the new Charger a green light because his teen-age kids thought the old Chargers were cool and Chrysler should bring them back. What a load of shit (and even if it's true, it's still a load of shit that some German kids have that much influence about the direction of Chrysler's cars).

Daimler wants to move Dodge away from cars and use Dodge for mini-vans and trucks. Cars are for Chrysler (really only 1 type of car - the

300 - with several different models - all visually similar on the outside, the way a lot of Merc cars are).

Dodge dealers have not been happy with Daimler-Chrysler for the past 5 years. They could have sold a ton of Chargers starting in late 2001 based on the 1999 Charger concept if Daimler had let them.

I agree. Shameful to put the axe to it!

Chrysler/Dodge had (past tense) the best looking cars on the road...bar-none! Most apparently gone now! The Benz's have always been ugly. Guess they can't have their "low-end" sister company putting out nicer looking cars than their "high-end" line. Typical. Dumb down the look of one instead of improving the look of the other.

Perhaps Mr. Zeitche should look at the sales numbers for the Pontiac GTO. A miserable failure by even the most optomistic accounts.

When the German's own it, it's their football! Sad as that may be!

Toyota didn't build market share by comressing it's offerings. Look at how many very different models of vehicles they sell!

Possible...if that 1999 design kept true to the Charger heritage. People that buy "heritage" cars (like the GTO, Mustang, Charger, etc.) are looking, in part, for the car to "look" like it's namesake. The current 4-door "sedan" model certainly doesn't scream "I am a Charger"! The Mustang sells because it's unmistakably a Mustang (from all angles). The GTO doesn't sell because it looks like a plain run-of-the-mill Pontiac.

That's called family resemblance. Not confined to Mercedes.

A C-Class and an S-Class are still different cars, for example, as are 3 and

7-series BMWs... Or are you suggesting they are not?

If you don't like a Merc for any reason, buy something else, etc.

What's the gripe?

DAS

A bold assertion. Purely a matter of opinion, don't you think?

DAS

I don't disagree that's it opinion. But, I don't know many people that disagree with me on it.

Must be something in American genes...

;-) DAS

True at several points in history: In the 30s with the Imperial, in the

40s with the original Town&Country, in 1955 with the first 300, in 1957-58 with the 300C and 300D. In 1966-1970 with the Charger and GTX. In the mid-70s with the last full-size Newport and New Yorker. In 1993 with the first Intrepid/Concorde/Vision models.

I disagree. The "in" styling trend is simply one that is not as appealing to me overall as the styling trends of years ago. But within that trend, I'll pick the Magnum and 300c over *ANYTHING* else out there. And in fact, I like it much better than most of the second-generation LH cars, especially the sawed-off stub-tailed square-trunked pinched-nosed 300M which was never attractive to me at all. IMO, the best looking Chrysler products since the mid 70s were the first-gen LH cars. I think that you have to judge the styling of the CURRENT Mopars against other current designs. That means the Magnum competes with this thing, which looks like an ill-tempered set of venitian blinds on wheels:

and the 300c competes with stuff like this: Can you seriously tell me that the 300c and Magnum don't win?

Yep. From the 60s through the 90s they looked like less-interesting versions of a Checker Marathon. Now they all look just like your average Nisshondoyota.

By my count, its been Corolla, Celica, Camry, and Avalon for like 20 years (if you count the Cressida before the Avalon). And the Avalon is a market disaster. Now if you count Lexus and Scion, I guess you're right. I will also give them credit for bringing out a 2-door Camry (Solara) even if they did make it so butt-fugly about 2 years ago that no one in their right mind would be seen driving it. Same for the Celica.

How about the other way round?

DAS

I don't think so. In particular, MB rear taillamp treatments on the market this year look VERY much like Hondas and Camrys from 3-5 years ago.

Ah, found some supporting photos.

2003 Honduhh Accord coupe: 2005 Benz CL: If those aren't clones, I don't know what qualifies. Yes, I'd rather have the Benz (as a former frequent-poster once told me, I have a "feral hatred" of Asian cars). But I'd rather have a '71 GTX than either of them :-)

Its all part of the homogenization of automotive styling. Very few designs truly stand out anymore, and the Magnum/300C definitely do. So do the Cadillacs and the Pontiac Aztek, but to my eye they stand out in a BAD way. Kinda like the way a skunk stands out in a flower garden.

I see the resemblance but I am not sure it means much, since the MB lights are an evolution of what went before. The shape also reminds me of one or two other makers.

At the end of the day there are bound to be similarities since car designers influence each other and also work within the same wind tunnel parameters (unless you're working for a Detroit Big Three and don't give a toss about wind resistance in a land of cheap petrol).

I think the Big 3 (I hesitate to say "US manufacturers" since that can include, as you put it, Nisshondoyota) have produced some unbelievably ugly cars, mixing plastic and metal rooves, for example, but I think in recent years the products have become much more attractive -- in my eyes of course, but I could find plenty of (European) people to agree with me.. :-).

I have mixed feelings about the 300C and the reviews I have read here in the UK also tend to be mixed. The shape is a 'love-it-or-hate' style. We shall see how it sells in Europe, as DC ramps up its Chrysler marketing here. Maybe sales will never be high, but there are major precedents for this.

Both GM and Ford have, as you know, vast operations outside the US, but you don't see a lot of Cadillacs here.

In this sense DC now is little different from GM or Ford, having separate operations in US and Europe, with only some interchange between them.

DAS

Nope. You get Opels, Australia gets Holdens, and we occasionally get an Opel hauled over here, face-lifted and marketed unsuccessfully as a Cadillac (ie, the Catera). Our current Pontiac GTO is a re-worked Holden- wonderful mechanically but given such nondescript styling that its going to be doomed to about the same fate as the Catera :-(

Same as it was 30 years ago before Chrysler scaled back its own European (and Austrialian, and South African) manufacturing and marketing divisons. That's part of what Chrysler was going to "get back" with the "merger" with Mercedes.... of course things turned out a bit differently.