Couple questions on '96 Grand Caravan

"Matt Ion" a écrit dans le message de news: AFR%i.6901$PE.3081@pd7urf1no...

It is a well known problen and you have to chexk for a company recall that haven't been done. It has been done on my 98, but I presume it is the same on 96. Good luck. L.G.R.

Is the air bag light on too? Is the horn also inoperative? If so, you may have the infamous spiral wire or "clock spring" problem that was common when the van was redesigned for the 1996 model year. There was a recall to replace the defective clock spring. The cruise control buttons route through this wiring as well.

If you can get on Chrysler.com, and go to the "owner information" section, you can enter the last 8 characters from your van's VIN. A list of recalls that are not reported as being completed for your vehicle will be shown. I would think that the clock spring recall would continue to be listed if it has not been completed.

-KM

Horn works, no airbag light, but I'll check the recall info just in case. Thanks.

Checked the site as suggested - this van DOES fall within the recall. I'll be taking it in ASAP. Thanks for the info!

Alright... is this endemic to the entire car industry, that dealership service centers are just useless gits?

I was ready to shoot someone over the bullshit we went through with this van in the service center at the dealership we bought it at (Marine Chrysler in Vancouver).

In the last few months, it's been again with the headaches at two different Mazda service centers with the MPV work van.

And now this. I just sent the following email to the service manager at a dealership that will be named later if I don't get satisfaction:

----------------------- I dropped off my '96 Grand Voyager with your service department this morning to have the clockspring assembly repaired (under a safety recall), and upon picking it up was told that nothing was done because their diagnostics did not return an error code on the clockspring, and so it was determined that nothing was wrong.

I checked into this recall in the first place because the cruise control and horn had both become intermittent, and I noted this to the service tech when I dropped the van off.

So imagine my annoyance at getting back on the road and finding the cruise control STILL DOESN'T WORK PROPERLY, and the horn is STILL INTERMITTENT.

I discovered that if I turn the wheel far-left, the "active" LED on the Cruise button will turn on and off, but only comes on dimly... and if I turn it back more than half a turn, it no longer works; if I turned it on when full-left, I can no longer turn it off.

Do your people actually TEST DRIVE anything these days, do they actually LOOK AT the problems reported by the customers... or do they just plug the vehicle into a computer and if the computer says there's nothing wrong, they simply take the computer's word for it?

I really don't have the time to waste bringing this thing back repeatedly, so how about you have someone COME AND PICK IT UP, and just replace the clockspring (which the tech assured me repeatedly had a lifetime warranty), and not believe what your computer tells you?

And this time, someone can bring the van back to me as well, because they apparently can't be trusted to call to inform me when it's done - if I hadn't called them myself at 5:45 tonight, I wouldn't have the van back now. As it is, the shop was closed by the time I got turned around and headed back, and nobody was answering the phone.

-------------

Let me explain how this works, if the vehicle has under 70k miles on it, the clockspring would get replaced regardless. If the vehicle has over 70K the DRB (scan tool) is connected and if there is a fault code for Drivers squib circuit open, the clockspring gets replaced. The Technician did what the recall said to do. Just because your horn and cruise don't work does not mean the clockspring is bad.The clock spring has a tape wire in it that will break over time, this wire consist of circuits for the cruise, horn and air bag. The fact that you can turn the wheel to get it to act up tells me that

2 circuits have been affected and the circuit for the air bag has not broken yet. You could tell them you want to pay the check out time to find out why the horn and cruise is inop and if it comes down to the clock spring causing it then you would get it replaced for free and no check out time would be charged to you. Sending that letter to them will get you no where and there is no reason to test drive it because there is no fault code stored for the Drivers side Squib.Im surprised they didn't replace it anyhow, it is a throw away part after the repair is done and does not get sent back to Chrysler. My opinion

Glenn Beasley Chrysler Tech

Let me explain how this works, if the vehicle has under 70k miles on it, the clockspring would get replaced regardless. If the vehicle has over 70K the DRB (scan tool) is connected and if there is a fault code for Drivers squib circuit open, the clockspring gets replaced. The Technician did what the recall said to do. Just because your horn and cruise don't work does not mean the clockspring is bad.The clock spring has a tape wire in it that will break over time, this wire consist of circuits for the cruise, horn and air bag. The fact that you can turn the wheel to get it to act up tells me that

2 circuits have been affected and the circuit for the air bag has not broken yet. You could tell them you want to pay the check out time to find out why the horn and cruise is inop and if it comes down to the clock spring causing it then you would get it replaced for free and no check out time would be charged to you. Sending that letter to them will get you no where and there is no reason to test drive it because there is no fault code stored for the Drivers side Squib.Im surprised they didn't replace it anyhow, it is a throw away part after the repair is done and does not get sent back to Chrysler. My opinion

Glenn Beasley Chrysler Tech

So let's see... customer comes in, tells you that two things related to a third item that's the subject of a safety recall are intermittent... you hook up the computer and get no error codes... and you just leave it at that? You don't even bother to test the related systems? "Nope, your vehicle is all fine, nothing wrong, have a nice day!"

I dunno about where you live, but around here, the horn is mandatory safety equipment as well. It's intermittent, and its connection is through the same point as a known safety recall. So... what, I should just survive with some of my safety equipment intermittent until some OTHER safety equipment fails, THEN I can get both fixed?

Yep - it sucks. Problem is obviously a bad clock spring, but because the computer doesn't see the problem, nothing is done. Inexcusable.

Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')

The Tech was following the procedure, Dont get mad at me, I was the one telling you about the recall!!!! The related symptom would have been a charge to you, did you authorize them to proceed with the diagnostics?

You have the option to have the horn circuit checked out, did you mention to them that your horn is a safety issue and you will pay the diagnostic fee to have it checked??

Yes around here it is a safety issue as well.As I said, you could have elected to have the Technician check the system out and if it were the clockspring that is at fault you would have got it for free.

Sorry, I'm not mad at you... it was more of a rhetorical "you".

For me to authorize them to do anything, they would have had to have called me. I dropped the van off at 8:30am for a 9:15 appointment. I doubt they spent more than half an hour on it. Not only did nobody call me to tell me they'd found nothing wrong and ask if I wanted them to dig deeper, but nobody called to tell me it was ready to be picked up.

As I noted, too, I didn't just drop it off and say, "Here, fix this recall problem". I told them what was wrong, and told them it had been suggested to me that it may be related to a recall issue, so they knew (or at least, my "service advisor" knew) why I had brought it down in the first place.

If they'd called to tell me all this early in the day, maybe I could have asked them to dig further... instead, I finally had to call them,

15 minutes before the service center closed, so it would have been too late to do anything about it unless I wanted to leave my van there another day.

The tech I dealt with called me back this evening, in response to my email... he basically told me the same thing as 'maxpower' did, that replacement was only done if the diagnostic computer showed an error on the airbag circuit.

I just sent the following email back (since they're now closed again for the night):

------------- I have a followup question from my conversation with John this evening: what happens if the clockspring airbag circuit in my Voyager fails

*during* an accident?

Seems to me when you have a known failure issue with a SAFETY-RELATED component, it's prudent to just replace it anyway? I don't recall Ford replacing Firestone tires ONLY after they showed signs of failure. I know when I got a recall notice for the seatbelts in my seven-year-old (at the time) Accord, Honda simply replaced the specified components; they didn't test them first to see if they might fail, or tell me to wait until there was actually a problem before they'd replace them.

I don't like the idea of chancing that my safety equipment MAY NOT work when it's required to, because of a component that's known to be prone to failure, just because your computer says it's not a problem NOW.

Is Chrysler willing to take that risk with the safety of myself and my family?

Well, I got an email back from the service manager today... they've agreed to replace the clockspring anyway. Calling now to set up a new appointment...

Good - that's what should have happened.

Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')

I don't know where you get your information but Hondas have been built in Canada for over 20 years. At least I think that's what you stated but without any punctuation it was hard to tell.

For your amusement, here's the conclusion to this sordid little tale.

Well, I had the appointment for this morning (Friday morning, which at this point I guess is yesterday). Woke up late, called the dealership, got put through the same asst. service manager, asked if it was too late to drop it by today... nope, no problem. Drove over and left it with them, telling them that 'by the end of the day' was fine for completion.

Well, since I was out on the road all afternoon for work, I called them as I was nearing home, at 5:20pm, figuring to ask them to have someone pick me up shortly so I could get there before the service dept. closed at 6. Mr. Ass Manager informs me that their driver is out at the other end of town dropping someone off, but as soon as the guy got back, he'd call me and have him come and get me. Said it should be about half an hour.

When nobody had called as of 6:30, I called the dealership... of course, everyone from Service was long gone, so I ended up talking to a sales manager, who promised to find the lot boy and send him right over. I gave the receptionist my address and cel number and sat back to wait... and wait... and wait... until finally at 7:15-ish, my doorbell rang. Keep in mind here, I'm LESS THAN FIVE MINUTES from this dealership - I could WALK there in 45 minutes.

The guy who picked me up apologized, said their radios weren't working properly and they had a new receptionist who didn't know she should use their cel phones to contact them... and when I noted how the Ass Manager was SUPPOSED to have called me before and pointed out this was the second time this had happened, he told me they'd been getting a number of complaints lately about their service department. Greaaaaat.

Anyway, I got down there, and within minutes, had my keys and was headed home. Yeah, cruise works perfectly again, which was what started off this whole clusterfuck...

I think one last email to the Service Manager about NOT getting my call back is in order... fact is, I had somewhere else I was supposed to be at 6:30... not trying to track down my vehicle because their people couldn't be bothered to contact me... AGAIN.

I read the entire thread and it occurred to me that I would have put the front end up on jackstands so the wheels were off the ground then proceeded to turn the wheel back and forth lock to lock about 30 times in an attempt to finish off the already damaged clockspring.