I would like to have the transmission fluid changed in my 99 Dodge Caravan 3.3 liter.I would like to have the fluid that`s in the torque converter replaced also.I called up my local Dodge Dealer and they said they only drop the pan and replace the filter and fluid in it and they don`t replace the fluid in the Torque converter.I them called CottMan Transmission Service and they said the same thing.Why don`t they change the fluid in the torque converter also? Is it too hard or too much trouble? Rick
Yes, too hard and too much trouble. It seems that the fluid in the converter gets mixed with the new fluid and this seems adequate for the continued health long live of the converter and transmission. Just use the right fluid and the right filter.
All the Dealers in our area do flushing for $125.00 even many of the local garages have flush equipment. The key here is if you do not use the dealer make sure that the garages use ATF+4 other wise they bought you a new tranny.
No drain plug on the TC after rougly 1975 in Chrysler transmissions. If you change your fluid regularly, the fluid remaining in the convertor isn't a problem. If you leave the pan and filter off for a few hours, the convertor will drain down until there are only a couple of quarts left anyway.
It's the old "that's good enough - minimize our efforts and fluid cost for whatever we can charge" philosophy - which is hard to fight in this case, because, right or wrong, it tends to be the "standard practice". One legitimate method (listed as an alternative in some factory shop manuals) is to drop the pan, put it back on, top it off, drive arounda a while, drop the pan again, top it off again. At least it replaces twice as much fluid, and of course there is more labor and fluid involved, so you would have to be willing to pay them for that. Any process is going to be a dilution process - nothing will be 100%, but some methods (like letting the tranny pump fluid out of the system while refilling thru the fill tube) are more thorough than others.
Of course, one of the advantages to DIY'ing is that you can do it the way you want to - it's your time, your money, and if your method truly is better, you will reap the benefits even if the immediate out-of pocket is about the same, give or take, as what you'd pay someone else to do it the accepted half-a**ed way.
Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')
It's not possible. The transmissions weren't made in such a way that you can do that. A lot of people will tell you they have a method for changing it, but that's not exactly honest. What they can do is run a lot of fluid through the transmission until most of the old fluid is gone. You can probably get somebody to do that, but if the transmission service didn't offer too, maybe not.
As I said - there is no such thing as a 100% changeout - whatever you do short of complete disassembly, cleaning, and drying is a dilution process. However, running 12 to 14 qts. thru a 10 qt. system with the engine running is a heck of a lot more effective at fluid replacement than dropping the pan and replenishing 4 qts. don't you think? I haven't done the math, but I would bet that running 14 qts. of new fluid thru replaces 95+% of the fluid (vs. 40%).
Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')
When I do a fluid change after dropping the pan and refilling, I disconnect the cooler return line before starting the engine. Until that time, none of the old oil in the converter or the other areas of the trans is pumped back into the pan. Once the engine is started and the trans pump is turned on, it is drawing new oil from the pan and from the dipstick where I'm pouring it in, and the old oil is pumping out of the converter into the return tube and into the catch pan.
You could argue that a film of oil oil is still in the valve body and some might back-fall into the pan when the transmission is switched on, but this is going to be very very minimal, perhaps a few tablespoonfulls if that.
You could also argue that the leading edge of new fluid is mixing with the trailing edge of old fluid, but once again, this is minimal and the mix region is of course going to be pumped out the return line.
Geeze, hasn't anyone on this group ever cleaned a still before?!?
I agree. But I guarantee that if I said it was a 99+% changeout, I would get an argument out of someone ("Oh yeah? What about the various valves and other blind alleys, etc.!!!!") - and that someone would probably be you! I therefore intentionally understated it. There's nothing safe!!!! :)
Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')
I guess that the old Fluid Drive Torque Converter had it over the modern ones! My 1949 had a drain plug on the converter, accessible through a hole in the floor. Loosen the plug, turn the converter and it drained out completely! Refilled with the correct 10W oil and off and running!
True, and anything more than a normal drain, filter change and refill is overkill for a transmission. They don't get nearly the contamination that an engine does, so even if you are changing only half of the oil each time, that is plenty as long as done on a reasonable interval.
OK - so you and Ted are going to argue opposite ends of the same question so that no matter what I say, one or both of you are going to say that I'm wrong. What else is new.
However, regarding your latest post (above), in light of a Mr. Armstrong's post in the "Daniel Stern, Bob Shuman, and possibly others" thread ("It obviously had at least some dexron in it when we got the car due to the symptoms(VERY jerky shift to first when slowing to a stop) and that is why I used that method. My current plan is to do it that way again due to having gone 65000 without a change and then I will try every
20000 from then on by just a pan drop if the fluid is still fairly bright red. I also plan on putting this engine and trans in a different car because the car has bad rear end collision damage and the suspension is falling apart (bushings disintegrating, pulls to right and nose dives on right front corner when braking). It should be easy to find another car/van with a 3.3/3.8 that has a blown trans because most people in my area seem to think that dexron III is the only fluid in existance and that it can be used in all makes and model car transmissions and power steering systems.") would you not say that a fairly thorough flush was needed in that case?
Granted that is a special case. Keep in mind that I *never* said that, in the general preventive maintenance case, anything less than a thorough flush was a sure way to a destroyed transmission. I simply stated how it would be done *and* that *IF* a more thorough fluid replacement was desired or required, that was, as far as I was concerned, *the* way to go for the DIY'er. Don't make it sound like I ever said that it *must* be done that way. I allowed that a simple pan drop and top off could be considered adequate, and that a double pan drop would be even better (as prescribed in some FSM's), though not as thorough as the cooler line disconnect method.
Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')
Some 5* service departments used to use a powerflush system that flushed the entire transmission and the charge for a 300M was $129--wonder if the powerflush system is still available from some Chrysler dealers?
I know squat, but wonder what flushing does for the filter (and what's in it)??????
Have been a believer in preventative maintenace, but beginning to wonder:
paid the shop to drop the pan, change filter & put new fluid in my Jeep Wranger............a couple weeks later it blew about a quart of fluid all over the engine.....had been overfilled.....noticed, also, that the pan bolts weren't tight. I probably put more wear on the tranny overheating it and frothing the fluid than if I hadn't had it serviced
told another shop to do the same to my LHS......turns out they flush only......had to have the cooler lines replaced within a couple months. coindcidence?
a co-worker took his Caravan to the dealer before going on vacation this past summer......70,000 miles unit.....asked them to flush & fill cooling systems and tranny as well as go over the vehicle. Tranny cooler blew the next week while they were on the road.....had to rent a car, have the Caravan repaired out-of-state, go back for it 2 weeks later....and it doesn't shift right.
so = beginning to wonder about the benefits of maintenace.....most people don't and don't seem to have any more - or as many - problems.
btw - my co-worker with the Caravan.....the "preventative" service was performed by the dealer he bought the unit from new.......they did nothing fo help him out.
Well, it is pretty hard to say that maintenance is bad just because you haven't found a shop that does maintenance correctly. I do my own engine oil changes, but I take the tranny to the local dealer is it is just too messy to bother with for what they charge to do the job. My van has 177,000 miles on it and I've had the transmission serviced probably 5 times with nary a hiccup. Would the transmission have lasted this long without any maintenance? Possibly, but I think not likely. Good maintenance is never a bad idea. Poor maintenance may be worse then none at all, but there is no excuse to settle for poor maintenance.
1) Ask friends, family, coworkers for referrals to places that had done good work for them before?
2) Go back to any prior shop that had done good work for you?
3) Resist the urge to clip a "50% off" coupon from the newspaper for your trans service?
4) Check with the BBB before you took your Jeep there and find out if there had been complaints about them?
5) File a complaint with the BBB yourself after this happened?
I'll bet the answer is no to all the above.
If they don't drop the pan and replace the filter a flush-only is a waste of fluid.
I think perhaps you should consider how your finding these shops.
What year Caravan? How did he find out the cooler "blew"? Also it is really BAD practice to take a vehicle in for service then immediately go on a multi-state jaunt with it for precisely the above example.
No question that bad or incompetent servicing is worse than no servicing at all, but no servicing at all is worse than competent servicing.
Well, I can't imagine that there was much they COULD do. What was he expecting - they send a tow-truck across 2-3 states and tow it back? Did the shop he got his Caravan fixed at give him a written statement that the cooler blew because of improper servicing by the last guy that serviced it? If not, why is he pissed at the dealership?
The trans cooler isn't under a great deal of pressure - fluid exiting the cooler goes into the pan, which has a vent to the atmosphere. For an external cooler to start leaking, it has to be really unusual circumstances - perhaps a rock got kicked up into the cooler? You have more chance of an in-radiator transmission cooler leaking, with pressurized coolant being forced into the transmission lines, than a transmission cooler "blowing" due to internal fluid pressure.
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