Engine fell apart at 59k mi - Why I will never buy another Chrysler

I have driven Chrysler vehicles exclusively almost my entire life. Over the years, I've owned Dodges, Jeeps, Plymouths, Chryslers, and even an Eagle. Currently, my primary vehicle is a 2002 5.9L Dodge Durango. It has 59,000 miles on the odometer.

A few weeks ago, it started running rough and the check engine light came on. Upon diagnosis, the problem was revealed to be that small pieces of the camshaft were actually breaking off, which had burned the valves. A major repair job was required, involving replacement of the camshaft and a complete valve job. The total bill came to about $2200.

The owner of the repair shop, who is very trustworthy and has been used by my family for years, spent 20+ years as a GM factory service rep. He advised that this sort of problem was virtually unheard of on a late model vehicle with this low amount of miles, and that even though it was a little bit out of warranty, I should seek redress with Chrysler because it was so obviously a manufacturer defect. He gave me the old camshaft and told me to take it to the Dodge dealer and show it to them; He stated that any competent mechanic could see instantly that it was an "extremely defective" part. He also said that in his years at GM, if a customer had brought in such a case, they would have opened an investigation and offered partial or even full compensation for the repair job.

A visit to the local Dodge dealership proved otherwise. The service rep had no itnerest in looking at the camshaft, and more or less accused me of having caused the problem by not ever changing the oil (in fact, I change it with Mobil1 every 3000 miles, since I had planned on keeping this vehicle forever.) He tossed me a card with Chrysler's 1-800 number on it, and told me it was their problem.

Not to be dissuaded, I called the number he provided. After much time on hold and being transferred around, I was summarily told that the vehicle was out of warranty and therefore any defect was my problem, tough luck. The Chrysler rep also made some not-so-subtle hints that I probably hadn't maintained the vehicle properly and/or was in cahoots with the mechanic trying to pull a con job. They had no more interest in looking at the camshaft than the dealer did.

It is appalling to me that a late model vehicle would have its engine fall apart at 59k miles and the manufacturer would take zero responsibility. After decades of buying, owning, and driving Chryslers, and after years of fighting the tide of my friends switching to foreign cars by telling them how great an experience I've always had, I am now swearing off Chryslers forever. (I haven't decided if I'm switching away from American cars altogether, or if maybe I'll give GM or Ford a try.) The new Challenger I had my eye on to buy in the next year or two is no longer under consideration. My money will go to companies that manufacture cars that function properly and that take responsibility for their products. From now on, when people mention they're considering the purchase of a Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep, I'll be sure to do my damndest to talk them out of it.

I haven't entirely given up the hope of getting some kind of reimbursement from Chrysler. I intend to write my state attorney general and pursue this under lemon laws, and I suppose I'll send all the photos and receipts to Chrysler via certified mail, with a nice explanatory letter, and we'll see if they do anything. But I doubt it.

If anyone has any other suggestions on how to seek redress on this, I'd appreciate it.

Reply to
txjeep7
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Good luck. I went thru a similar thing with Ford some years ago. Frankly I don't think one manufacturer is any worse or better than another one these days on this sort of thing. Pursue it, but try not to drive yourself crazy over it (like I did with Ford).

Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')

Reply to
Bill Putney

Have you considered a accidential truck fire.. hint hint

Reply to
Scootter

Couldn't hurt to try. Years ago, the number 2 exhaust and number 4 intake camshaft lobes went flat on our 1980 Toyota Celica, with on

43,000 miles on it. At the time, Toyota had a wimpy 12 month / 12,000 mile warranty, and they refused to do anything. However, the extend service agreement that was sold to us by the dealer offered to pay half the cost, even though the coverage had expired six months before.

The oil had been changed regularly since new. It was clearly a manufacturer defect.

-KM

Reply to
kmath50

As well he should. You didn't take your vehicle into his shop for a repair, you took it to a private mechanic. Why should he help you?

I think your missing the point. If you had taken it to a Chrysler dealer then Chrysler corp. would be assured that the camshaft had actually been in your car. I'll also bet that you didn't take your truck into the dealership for regular oil changes, you took it to your other mechanic or a quick oil change place.

Here's the deal. You bought a new vehicle. You elected to deny the Chrysler dealer the profits for regular maintainence during the warranty period. Thus you deprived yourself of the chance of building a relationship of trust with the dealer.

You don't seem to understand I think that car dealerships depend on the profits from the service department to stay in business. No car dealership could survive if they didn't do service work and just depended on the margin on vehicle sales.

You have a relationship of trust with your "family" mechanic that is a result of years of doing business with him. As a result he is willing to cut you deals and go to bat for you. If you had given the same car dealership that you bought your truck from all of the maintainence work, you would have that same relationship with them - and likely the dealership owner would go to bat for you against Chrysler.

Let's see. Mfg recommended intervals for oil changes are 6K right? That's a total of 10 oil changes since it was new. Suppose the quickie lube does changes for $20 a change, and the dealership's obscene rates are $60 for an oil change. So it seems to me here that you saved $400 in oil changes by having the quickie lube do them - but you lost $2200 in an engine rebuild. Not a very smart thing I think.

Under normal wear and tear I'd agree with this.

Not appalling at all. How do they know how you were treating the vehicle unless you were visiting them all of the time for the little piddly stuff?

Are you going to sell your truck? If not, then I would see how much more life you get out of it. What happens if you get another 160,000 miles out of it without trouble, in which case what are you going to be saying about Chrysler vehicles then?

Your only option is your state lemon laws - assuming they are very liberal. But you will never get back what you lost on this even if you get reimbursement of some kind. Espically the time you spend pursuing this. That is the breaks. Treat this as a learning experience. Next time you go car shopping for a NEW vehicle, understand that part of the cost of buying new is it costs more since your going to have to spend your money at the dealership service department for a while.

Ted

Reply to
Ted Mittelstaedt

Well, I don't agree with Ted that Chrysler corporate should treat you any differently because you elected to perform routine maintenance yourself (or have a mechanic you trust do it).

But viewed from the other side, the failure *did* happen out of warranty. I would hope that Chrysler will eventually cut you a little slack and at least cover part of the cost, but they're really not under any obligation to do so.

And further, I can't agree with your decision to swear off Chrysler over this. If it were a commonly documented failure (like Toyota engines that lose oiling becuase they generate sludge due to inadequate PCV flow and high oil temperatures, GM v6 engines that fail because the intake manifold gaskets leak coolant into the oil, or the early Chrysler 2.7 that would fail its timing chain tensioning system, etc.) and they offered no help then you absolutely should swear them off. But during the 40+ years that the LA smallblock was in production, I don't know that I've ever heard of another case of the camshaft "falling apart" the way you describe. I don't doubt you, I'm just saying that this whole thing may fall into the category of "strange shit happens once in a while." $2000 to repair it really is a relatively small fraction of the value of the truck (certainly a lot less than buying a replacement). Call it a bummer and move on, its not going to happen to you again.

Reply to
Steve

AGREED!!

AGREED

AGREED! Damn Ted your good!

The 5.2 and 5.9 is a very good engine and I was sorry to see it go. Chrysler doesnt know what the intake looked like before the repairs. It was more then likely sludged up and cleaned after the repairs.

He may get that if the oil is changed at the proper intervals

Reply to
maxpower

What do you call "proper" intervals?

Because I bought a US spec 2007 Dodge Caravan 3.8 new and imported it.

In the US and in the service book it says 3000 miles. The same vehicle (albiet with the 3.3 version of the same engine and called the Chrysler Voyager) is available here in the UK but right hand drive. It has 12,000 miles between changes specified.

I think 12k miles is as lot. But I think 3k miles is rediculously short. Here in Europe I dont think there are any cars avasilable with such a short interval! Even ones that are also sold in the US. Almost all specify 6, 10 or 12 thousand mile intervals. There are lots of very old 200 thousand mile taxis and company cars still running just fine! The scrap yards get them due to rust before the engines give up!

Personally I do it every 5k miles with Mobil 1 full synthetic 0w/40 rather than the fuel saving tap water thin 5w/20 specified for a bit of belt and braces peace of mind.

Reply to
Burgerman

depends on the oil

I believe that Europe has some silly law that mandates vehicle manufacturers must manufacture engines that will work at minimal 12k mile intervals. Someone undoubtedly will correct me.

Here is my $0.02 for what it's worth. Oil has 2 components - a lubricating component (ie: the oil) and a cleaning component (the detergent that neutralizes the sulfuric acid that forms from blowby that goes into the crankcase) The oiling system in a vehicle has 1 major component - the filter.

There's 2 general types of oil filters out there. The "regular" ones and the "heavy duty" ones. The heavy duty ones have more filtering area and so can fill up with more contaiments more slowly - you get more miles out of them. Heavier filters in general are the longer-lasting ones. When the oil is black the filter is full and is in bypass mode and not filtering. The oil FILTER must be changed then. When the oil molecules are "worn out" the oil doesen't lubricate any more and must be changed. When the detergent package is "full" it is no longer neutralizing acids and once more the oil must be changed.

Unfortunately there is no visible indicator as to when the detergent package is "full" or when the oil molecules are worn out, or when the oil is contaminated enough by metals, or when some of the other lubricant additives (like molybendum) are used up. HOWEVER the people that live and breath motor oil for a living all claim that cars that have had oil analyses done on them every 3K miles have shown that the ADDITIVE PACKAGE itself can last AT LEAST 12,000 miles and possibly much longer EVEN FOR standard NON-SYNTHETIC oil.

Unfortunately oil analysis is more expensive than an oil change for a passenger car which is why nobody does them on passenger cars - although, oil analysis is routinely done on commercial large engines that have a lot more oil in them.

My PERSONAL OPINION is that none of the "standard duty" cheap oil filters can last 12,000 miles in a regular passenger car before going into bypass. That is based on my own observations of checking, feeling, and smelling the oil in all the vehicles I've owned. I HAVE noted a MARKED difference in the expensive heavy duty filters - think NAPA and WIX and Hastings - but those filters cost at least double your standard Purolator. (Fram of course I wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole) I think in a newer low-mile engine with little blowby that a high quality filter CAN last 12,000 miles - but I would definitely continue to check the oil every 3,000 miles, not just for clarity but for level. In an older high mile engine, I don't believe even a heavy duty filter can last that long.

I think this is a tremendous waste of money. Synthetic oils last FAR LONGER than standard oils. If I were you I would AT LEAST consider doing an OIL FILTER change every 5K miles, and only do the oil change itself every

10K miles if your going to use Mobil 1. But I think that still, this is tremendous overkill for synthetic oil.

On my older engines (all of have over 100K on them) I do an oil change and filter change every 3K miles. I use a standard non-heavy duty filter unless I'm able to find the heavy duty ones on sale. One of my engines consumes oil at about a quart every 2K miles. The other - which has more miles on it - consumes oil at a rate of about a quart every 5K miles. I also use standard dino oil - and whenever I can get it on sale, I stock up.

Ted

Reply to
Ted Mittelstaedt

Chrysler corporate and the Chrysler dealer are two entirely different entities. I won't bother starting the argument of whether or not the factory should even use dealers at all - Dell Computer seems to have done well selling high-ticket items without involving dealers - but the facts of the matter are that all automakers that sell in the US regular passenger cars use a dealer system.

If you don't like buying from a dealer then buy used vehicles out of the newspaper from a private seller. There's some super-fantastic deals to be had out there doing it this way, you can even sometimes get cars that are only a couple years old, still under the factory warranty, this way. But you can't get new. If you must have new, then you have to play the game the way the manufacturer wants you to play it. And the manufacturer wants you to use the dealer system so if you decide to buck the system as best you can, your taking a huge risk for a very little savings.

And don't think for a second that the automakers don't already understand all of the ramifications of this.

The US product laws forbid a manufacturer from forcing a buyer to use the dealer system - for example Chrysler cannot sue private individuals who sell cars through the newspaper, as much as they would prefer that the cars be traded in so their dealers can sell the used ones. BUT, the automakers CAN setup an "environment" where it discourages non-use of the dealer system by new car buyers as much as possible, and one of the ways they do it is through warranty claims.

What your all missing is in this particular Original Posters scenario it makes no difference if the engine blew up within the warranty or not. If it HAD blown up under warranty then Chrysler STILL would have probably denied the claim, citing inadequate oil changes - IF the only thing the OP could have come up with is a handful of receipts from quickie lubes for the oil changes. Of course, in that case, the OP would have the law on his side and he could get resolution though the courts.

How much simpler would it have been to just do the oil changes at the dealership so that when Chrysler corporate called the dealer and said "what the hell is this new engine claim crapola your putting in" the dealership could simply tell them "hey, we have a service record as long as my dick for this guys car and goddamit we did every fricking oil change speced in the book, so don't you even try pulling that inadequate oil change bullcrap on us or I'll ram his service record up your ass"

No, they aren't. And because of this they won't.

Consider that MOST products you buy today have NON-TRANSFERABLE warranties, and you will see that frankly the automakers are giving you a really, really REALLY fantastic warranty deal.

Hell, do you get a warranty like this when you buy a home? HELL NO. Oh, if it's a brand new house, for at least the first year you will be able to get SOMETHING out of the builder - but the home construction industry is notorious for not living up to any kind of warranty. And homes are far, far more expensive than cars.

I firmley believe that most new vehicle purchases have a large component of "non-logical consideration" in them.

If everyone's new car purchase was COMPLETELY a logical purchase then I believe that the vast majority of new car purchases would be spec-built. The buyer would walk into the dealer and order the car with the exact features he needed, then wait 6 weeks or whatever for it to be built and delivered. It would be rare indeed that a buyer's needs would exactly match up with the features of a vehicle already on the lot.

But this doesen't happen, which indicates for most people it's at least as much an emotional purchase as it is a logical one. Thus, none of us are going to convince the OP (if he's even still reading this thread which I doubt) that his decision to never buy Chrysler again is not logical - because he very likely didn't use a lot of logic for the purchase in the first place, and he is unlikely to change his car buying ways in the future.

Ted

Reply to
Ted Mittelstaedt

(1) One irony in an older engine is that the fact that it needs a quart or two added between changes means that the interval may be extended somewhat. Of course that doesn't extend filter life being as it has had to filter as much blowby regardless of any loss and makeup - but if one were to use a quality filter and be changing filters at every change rather than at every other change...

(2) At least one of the participants on the 300M Club forums

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has experimented quite a bit with different oils and filters utilizing oil analysis by Blackstone Labs to see how far the change interval can be reasonably extended (in his 300M, the way he uses it). The information is there if anyone is interested (the forums' search engine works well).

Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')

Reply to
Bill Putney

I avoid this whole problem by not buying new vehicles and assuming things like this will happen. When it does I either fix it myself or I pay an independent guy to do it to my specifications, which are usually excessive, so I pay excessive. Still I come out ahead.

As far as dealer service, I say PHOOEY, PHOOEY, PHOOEY. Not at those rates.

The average dealer ship mechanic is doing HOW MANY flat rate hours in a forty hour work week?? The flat rate books are generally radically overtime. I think they hire 90 year olds to do the "research tests". I can beat the flat rate sometimes and I am a slothlike wrench turner by my own admission.

I don't want to hear about the huge capital costs for electronic diagnostic tools because it is a case of the manufacturer deliberately gouging on these. If they had wanted to they could have used a common RS-232 serial port, instead they came up with bullshit OBD systems with assorted plugs and protocols. Even so the aftermarket has priced scan tools for a few hundred bucks, very tops, and half the cost is their reverse engineering because the manufacturer chooses not to fully document their product.

I also don't want to hear about the $30K tool box because those trucks are F'ing you guys. Half the price of Snap-On is the dealer credit program.

Reply to
Bret Ludwig

Filters are cheap. Oil is cheap, too.

Every car engine should be designed to take a standard Ford Motorcraft FL-1A filter. Two, three bucks.

But noooooo......

BTW, I'm a firm believer in the full flow and separate bypass filter. I like the TP Franz filter. Some don't.

Reply to
Bret Ludwig

WOW! I was considering a Dodge Caliber, but will buy a new Subaru when the

Reply to
mike n

Have you spent any time on Subaru forums in the last few years? They are definitely not without problems either. Clutch problems, brake problems, rear wheel bearing problems...

Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')

Reply to
Bill Putney

My wife and I bought a 2007 Caliber in August, it has over 10K miles and is getting 28-30mgp in mixed driving, not problems and solid. One of the best Chrysler products I have ever bought.

Reply to
Count Floyd

The old Subarus with the pushrod EA81 and similar were very reliable maintainable cars. The newer ones IMO are complicated and while reliable can get very expensive to keep going OOW.

The auto makers just can not fathom some of us do not like high tech cars. Of course the Nazi US vehicle laws do not make it any easier.

Were we to harmonize our safety and emissions laws with Japan and the EU we would save billions of dollars a year.

Reply to
Bret Ludwig

The Chrysler filter is pretty close in size to the FL-1A, it's a pretty good filter. Also, the FL-1A can be substituted for many other filters.

Ted

Reply to
Ted Mittelstaedt

I do hope that whatever new vehicle you buy you take the advice about building a relationship with your dealer to heart.

Ted

Reply to
Ted Mittelstaedt

I just returned from a 900 km return trip through the western Canadian mountains with my '95 Concorde. Ran like a clock, up two steep snowy mountain roads to over 4,200 ft. and cruising at 130KPH on bare pavement to avoid being passed by grit throwing large SUVs and pickups. Fuel mileage as when new, a new car of the same size would use only slightly less fuel. On the return a Feb. thaw had started and fortunately I managed to avoid several large rock and ice falls on the road, so didn't have to mount my FULL SIZED spare. If I damaged a tire and only could store a compact spare, I'd have no room to store the flat. Actually I couldn't continue my trip without a matching tire. I just washed the mess off it today and my only new damage is a few very tiny chips in the hood front top paint coat. In the ski season I do several of these trips, most only 340KM return and still not a sign of body rust after many years of these trips. A great Canadian body. This car has proven itself again to be very tough, designed and built well for such driving. Too bad Chrysler hasn't a replacement for it, but I'll wait as long as this Concorde meets my requirements.

Reply to
Some O

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