Grand Caravan 93 3.3

Autozone sells one for about $181. Just realize that once you buy it you can't return it.

I'm a little sceptical that the PCM has an intermittent problem unless they retrieved a specific code that had been stored in memory that led them in this direction. My guess would be something else like a fuel pump going bad, an intermittent crank sensor, etc. Of course, this is a wild ass guess since I haven't laid eyes on the van. Take it for what it's worth - zero :-)

I've got an update. The dealership can get a part from the junk yard and install it for $435 plus tax. I think I can get it from an online store for between $ 200 and $250, probably with a warranty.

Nick

thanks for the feedback. I've got tons of fuel pressure. I too thought maybe a crank sensor or cam sensor, but that's what they are telling me. Another piece of info: I normally can do the 3 time key on and off, and get the codes or a 12 and 55. I tried that last night after it died and no codes, the check engine light didn't flash, no 12, no 55, nothing. I'm wondering if it's a bad wire. How else could they get it started ?

thanks nick

What a damn joke.

What the dealer is calling the "PCM" is properly called the SBEC. They almost *never* fail, and most SBEC failures involve nothing more than the voltage regulation section -- not the primary engine control functions. An "internal short" in the SBEC is highly unlikely, and an intermittent "internal short" in the SBEC is even less likely. Internal faults in the SBEC set a specific code (53) which you did not get. It is far more likely the problem is located in the wiring that connects to the SBEC, or elsewhere outside of the SBEC. (Why is the dealer feeding you a line of crap and quoting you so high for the repair? Because you brought them a

12-year-old vehicle. Smarten up, quit going to the dealer.)

Nevertheless, if you feel you must change the SBEC, use

(searchable used auto parts nationwide) and find an inexpensive one to swap in. (you do not need a warranty, for this component almost never fails). Using only basic hand tools, the swap job will take even a modestly-skilled do-it-yourselfer all of about 20 minutes to do. Three bolts hold the SBEC to the left fender. One bolt of the same size holds the wire connector to the SBEC. You may need to remove components (e.g. battery) to get to the SBEC. Once you do, the swap is simplicity itself.

But, really, I'd start over. Find a good independent mechanic who'll take the time to diagnose it properly.

It is really sad that 36 years after the first computer-controlled engine appeared in North America, service managers are still telling customers "Ooooh, it's...the *COMPUTER*! (-puter! -puter! -puter!)", and customers are still believing it.

DS

Thanks for the feedback. AllData also calls this component the PCM (PowerTrain Control Module), but I'm not too concerned about that. I picked up the van about an hour ago and got a chance to talk to the mechanic. The service manager would give me gave me no info. other than the PCM has an internal short. The mechanic was willing to talk. He took off the connector to the PCM, and reconnected it and the car started. He thinks a circuit board might be cracked, cold solder joint, etc. I asked if it could be a bad wire. He said he took off the connector to check for power and ground and everything was fine. So he 'thinks' it's the PCM. I might replace the PCM, Autozone has one for $169.00 (how do you tell if it's Fed

• Canada or the other ?) I might also start the van and jiggle the connector and wires to see if it could be a bad wire or suspect connection. The reason I take it to the dealer is that they're the experts, have all the instruments to diagnose these problems and have a national network where tech's can dial in and help. It cost .00 for their analysis and I think it's cheaper than having a local mechanic troubleshoot by replacing parts. Most of these mechanics don't like to spend a lot of time troubleshooting a problem. Time is money to them. And I wouldn't feel good about having someone spend all day, find the problem and then me say thanks, I'll do it myself. With the analysis, the dealer knows I may not have them do the work.

thanks aga>

"PCM" is a generic term, and it is an incorrect one. The correct generic term for this device is ECM, Engine Control Module. Chrysler calls it an SBEC, Single Board Engine Controller. It does not control the "powertrain" (engine + transmission), so it is not a PCM. The TCM (Transmission Control Module) is elsewhere in the engine compartment.

His test doesn't tell us it's a cracked board(?! Not unless the van was hit hard...that board is fully encapsulated!) or cold solder joint. It

*could* be a cold solder joint, but if it restarted after removal and replacement of the connector, it was much more likely simply a dirty or corroded pin or connector socket.

I "think" he's probably wrong.

Waste of money. I see *lots* of them, tested working, for $50 and under on car-part.com (search 1993 Dodge Caravan, Computer Box - Engine).

Look at the underhood Vehicle Emission Control Information label. If it says "This vehicle complies with all US EPA requirements for 1993 new vehicles", it's a Fed/Can. If it says "This vehicle complies with US EPA and California requirements for 1993 new vehicles", it's California.

You're mistaken. The dealers don't have any greater or lesser ability to diagnose these problems than a well-equipped independent tech.

A mechanic who troubleshoots by replacing parts isn't a mechanic, he's a parts changer. Sounds like you didn't know that the scan tools used to interface with the computer are universally available and virtually every garage has at least one. And, what'd you get for your $80? An "analysis" that's iffy at best.

That's true, unfortunately. But, it applies equally to dealer and non-dealer techs.

DS

Daniel;

Thanks for the feedback. Now I really don't know what to do !! I just came back in from the garage. I started the car and tapped on the 'SBEC' to see if the car would die and prove it was in the SBEC somewhere. No luck. I also gently moved the cables around thinking it could be a loose connection, bad or broken wire. No luck, it keeps running. Right now I don't have a lot of confidence in the van unless I can find the problem and feel if I take it to a local shop, since it runs fine now, they're not going to find anything either.

Nick

would an intermittent crank sensor throw a trouble code ?

Stronger and stronger evidence that it was nothing more than a dirty/corroded pin and/or socket. If you want to fix it more permanently, find a well-stocked local hardware store that sells a product called "Ox-Gard", sold for use with aluminum household wiring. It is a green paste and comes in a small tube. Remove the connector from the SBEC, apply the Ox-Gard to the surface of the connector and push/work it into the sockets with your thumbs. Wipe the excess off the surface of the connector, then reinstall the connector.

Yep, time to go into Failure Operation Mode (drive it til it breaks and then you'll know what it was!)

Seriously, drive it for awhile. Carry a celphone. Odds are fair to good that the problem will not reoccur, especially if you apply the conductivity paste to the connector.

DS

Yes.

i agree with daniel. i don't think its the sbecs that giving you problem. i'm leaning towards crankshaft sensor. i've changed a few with similar problem.

Thanks tdodge and Daniel;

I'm taking your advice. To let it sit in the driveway is not going to solve the problem. I may change the crankshaft sensor just to eliminate that possibility. And get the paste for the electrical connections.

Do you think a bad crankshaft sensor would cause this problem, which was somewhat resolved by R&R'ing the SBEC connector ? I really was hoping it was something that finally died, like the sensor, but when it started again, that blew my theory out the window.

thanks again, Nick

FWIW, I'm pretty sure that my 1993 LH car FSM also refers to it as a PCM. I thought that Chrysler dropped the SMEC/SBEC terminology when they went to multiple computers talking over the "CCD" bus ("Chrysler Collistion Detection bus"). After that, you had PCM (Powertrain Control module), TCM (Transmisison Controle Module), BCM (Bodly Control Module), etc.

I have one data point (my wife's car- 1993 Vision TSI with a 3.5) where the crank sensor did NOT throw a code. Made it darn frustrating to find the problem- and it too was intermittent. The cam sensor immediately throws a code, but not always the crank sensor.

Nope. If the crank (or any other) sensor were causing the problem, and the problem went away with R&R of the SBEC connector, then it was by extreme coincidence.

DS