Magnum

It isn't a FWD or RWD issue, it is a weight distribution issue. If a car was perfectly balanced fore and aft, then RWD would perform as well as FWD starting out and would perform better once you were moving as you aren't asking the same set of wheels to both pull and steer. And the steeper the hill becomes, the more weight shifts to the rear and the better RWD becomes.

Matt

and if your car was parked on an icy street, and a snow plow came by and surrounded your car with a nice row of snow and ice, and you tried to drive away, you and your RWD traction control vehicle would just sit there, spinning one rear wheel or the other in perpetuity, while the guy with the FWD vehicle parked behind you would simply drive away.

Where do you drive your RWD traction control vehicle?

Actually, I have. Have you?

I live in northern PA and have driven just about every road going vehicle from motorcycles to tractor trailers in the snow. I didn't own my first FWD car until 1984 after 8 years of driving RWD/4WD exclusively. Since then, I've owned at least one FWD and RWD (pickups mainly) at any given time.

The best snow car I've ever had was RWD. It was also rear engine ... a VW Beetle. As I said, the issue is weight bias towards the driving wheels, not whether they are in the front or the rear.

Matt

Oh, *horseshit*. I drove for over a decade's worth of Colorado and Michigan winters with non-traction-control, non-limited-slip-differential RWD vehicles and did just fine. There is no such thing as an "all-season" tire; as long as you remember that and shoe the car appropriately, RWD vehicles work just fine in winter.

Amen to that. I love embarrassing CRV and RAV4 drivers in winter with my 10 year old FWD neon with PROPER Michelin Arctic Alpin SNOW TIRES. They just don't get it. Stoplight drags are no contest.

Well lining in Canada I certainly have experienced snow, particularly since I drive to Western Canadian ski hills including Whistler where one can experience all of the ugly weather conditions in two hrs, from +5 and heavy rain, through freezing rain, to -5 and snow. OH I forgot to mention many steep long hills.

Most of my driving has been RWD, including a few VWs, but FWD in the last 20yrs. RWD required chains over the winter tires to tackle some of our ski hills. RWD required very good winter tires, to be just passable. As for the VW it was very good in winter conditions for straight ahead driving even with summer tires. I never did get winter tires for my VWs. Unfortunately when the fuel tank wasn't full and their wasn't added weight in the front (sand bags) lack of turning traction severely limited cornering speed on slippery roads. Also spinning around could also be a problem at times. The heater / defroster we won't take about!

The VWs were good in their time, having some advantages over the 50s monster junky NA cars, but they are no competition with todays excellent FWD vehicles.

FWD with all season tires does the job for me very well. Automatic also helps in avoiding wheel spin in taking off. The FWD cars I've had have been very stable platforms, continuing straight ahead when braking on slippery roads and allowing one to literally pull the car around corners behind the drive wheels. I've been so happy with FWD on cars from the Horizon 2Dr to my current '95 Concord and my wife's '91 Sybring I wouldn't return to RWD. The roads close before I have trouble in winter conditions.

I should mention ABS which improves control on slippery surface braking so well, ABS should be a legal requirement.

Yes I rented a 2.7L Magnum for two weeks. The 2.7L is a great engine for my wife's Sybring FWD, but not for the much heavier Magnum RWD. I drove to the top of the 10,000 ft mountain in Maui, so it got a good test.

What got me in trouble was pulling out into traffic. The 2.7L Magnum just didn't take off like my '95 Concord with it's stump puller 3.3L V6.

I also found the A/C so so, but adequate. Those small windows reduce A/C requirements significantly. They also reduce visibility significantly.

Those experienced with real winter driving know how to get traction control at low speeds. It's called a light foot on the brake; with RWD a light pull on the parking brake does the trick.

Nope! FWD is much better when pulling out (particularly right) into traffic and when taking sharp city corners. Or is there something else that makes my '95 Concord handle better than any car I have owned or rented? I rent new cars at least twice per years on distant trips.

On a few roads here in BC, Canada there are many curves which are posted as low as 30Kmph. I have a problem with yahoos driving too close, particularly those in SUVs, because I know they can't stop as fast as me if wildlife (deer, etc.) just happen to run out in front of me. Unfortunately they can't pass for many Kms, so I have had to resort to a shake off procedure. On corners to the left (so oncoming traffic isn't threatened) I gradually increase my speed on each corner, say about 10Kmph on each. Eventually they can't keep the track, in fact a few have almost hit the concrete divider on the road shoulder keeping cars from falling down the mountain side. That does it to them, they learn not to drive by keeping that space to me so small. I haven't had an SUV or Van keep up to me yet and I've not nearly reached my Concords limits even at double+ the posted corner speed. In fact I've never had my Concord limit out on any corner, it's cornering power in so fantastic even though it looks like just a dull passenger carrier.

Read again what I wrote. You've never driven a FWD car that was perfectly balanced front to rear weight-wise and a RWD car that was also perfectly balanced. I don't know what the bias is on your Concord, but most cars have at least 60% of the weight on the front wheels and I've seen specs with 65% on the front. Sure, with 60% of the weight on the front wheels, a FWD will have more starting traction than a RWD with 40% on the drive wheels. However, balance them equally, and starting traction will be the same. If the original VW Beetle used the front wheels for driving with the rear engine, it wouldn't be able to move at all in the snow. Do you really not understand this concept of weight distribution?

Matt

Apparently, you don't understand the concept of design consequences. FWD designs usually have an unequal weight distribution that puts a majority of the weight on the front wheels. This is a consequence of FWD design. No-one in their right minds would attempt to design a FWD car and try to equalise the weight front vs. rear.

Some years ago Alfa Romeo built cars with the transmission placed in the rear (or as far back as was practical. These were RWD cars and the designers were attempting to achieve an even front-to-rear weight ratio.

I think the original discussion was on the merits of FWD vs. RWD cars. Discussing the merits of RWD cars against a non-existent type of FWD car (a FWD car with an even front-to-rear weight ratio) is utterly pointless.

I certainly understand what you said and now I'm wondering why you even bothered saying it. What is perfect weight distribution? It varies with the specific driving situation. I'm not talking "ifs" but reality from my experiences. I should say I liked my two VW beetles I had for 6 yrs, but they just don't compare to my FWD experiences. You are correct about RWD getting a weight shift increase when going up hill, however a typical FWD front engine is still better than a RWD front engine vehicle, due to it's initial weight forward bias. For other normal driving conditions FWD front engine excels. Note I'm not talking racing where both steering and driving the front wheels is a negative. I find I can go up a hill with FWD and all season tires that my RWD front engine cars couldn't go up with winter tires; chains were required. My FWD cars only bog down when deep snow drags underneath. The VW beetle had the same problem, with the additional problem that it's front bottom shape tended to toboggan it up off it's wheels in deep snow, requiring the snow to be removed from underneath it, to get the driving wheels back on the ground.

The RWD rear engine VW bug presented the problem of not enough weight on the front wheels to steer and track well on slippery roads and even on dry roads with a strong cross wind.

I'm speaking from the experience of 25 recent years of several different Chrysler FWD cars, a significant size range from the '79 Horizon to the '95 Concord, preceded by 14 years of RWD front engine and 6 years of two RWD VW beetles. Oh yes I also had a GMC stretch length Van, that I converted to a camper, for 15 years. What a dandy it was in the snow! >:)

In all of those years winter conditions were several months of typical Canadian snow and ice. The last 30 years included many drives on steep hills to ski hills in the western Canadian mountains. Being an engineer and a car buff, including doing much of my own maintenance, I'm fully aware of what is happening to my vehicle as I drive. The Magnum in the subject we have above I wouldn't even attempt to use in the winter driving I do. Why make winter driving more difficult?

I understand design rather well. The weight distribution isn't a consequence of FWD it is a largely a consequence of front engine placement. The old Detroit RWD cars had weight distributions not all that different than today's FWD cars. Likewise, the VW old Beetle was heavy in the rear, not due to being RWD, but due to having its engine in the rear.

You obviously are missing my point completely. The point is that traction isn't a function of which set of wheels are driving; it is a function of which set of wheels have the most weight. If I put 2,000 lbs. in my pickup, it will run as well in snow in RWD as my FWD minivans do.

Yes, that is a good ploy for a nice handling, nicely balanced vehicle.

And my point is that the "merit" has little to do wtih FWD vs. RWD, and has almost everything to do with front engine vs. rear engine. And I gave an excellent counter example, the VW old Beetle, that proves my point quite well.

Matt

What you say is correct for straight ahead traction, but there is far more to overall driving traction than your simple example.

OK, I'm game, state a condition where the above isn't correct.

Matt

umm how about taking an off ramp with 2000lbs in the back of your truck, its going to want to swing out in snow,

Actually, that much weight in the back just about balances it out and makes the handling much more neutral. And the truck outhandles my FWD minivans hands down in snow, even with no weight in the back.

Matt