Question about engine oil sludge

You have probably heard about oil sludge problems causing engine failure on several engines including the Chrysler 2.7L V6 used in Intrepids from

1998-2004, Toyota 3L V6 used in Camry's and even the Volkswagen 1.8L Turbo engine used in lots of VWs and Audis. The common reason given is too infrequent oil changes. The fix is to use synthetic oil and keep it current.

That's what I thought, but last Saturday, I was listening to a show on the radio in Denver called NAPA auto care. The mechanics said that the sludging problem is actually caused by a combination of distributor-less high energy ignition systems and coolant that had not been changed. Evidently, the fast-rising current spike travelling through the block induces sludging???

I found that very confusing. Do any of you know more, or were these guys just trying to scare up some business?

Reply to
Bill D
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I've certainly heard lots about the problem, but that's the first I've heard that explanation. I'm not ready to totally discount it until I hear more, but I'm having a very hard time imagining how coolant (that is not leaking internally) can cause sludge in the crankcase! Are the ignition current spikes supposed to disturb gasket interfaces and thus cause the coolant to leak into the crankcase and form sludge with the oil?

Willing to listen...

Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my adddress with the letter 'x')

Reply to
Bill Putney

Could it be perhaps that the worn-out coolant becomes less inductive than the aluminum head? If so, the current would flow into the least inductive path (remember, this is an AC spike)

Could that potentially cause local heating of small oil passages in the engine? I think these engines run hotter to meet emissions, and maybe this is enough to cause sludge?

Inquiring mind need to know!!

Reply to
Bill D

Just to give more data: I have not even once changed the coolant in my

2.7l which now has 205,000 kms (127,000 mi). Also I'm on my second synthetic oil change without catastrophe. And of note: my commute has recently been reduced from 70kms each way to about 20 kms each way. I will update the group with any change in the, what I would now call dependability, of my motor.
Reply to
pawn

I've got exactly the same miles on my '99 2.7L, and it runs fantasticly. I am changing the coolant for the first time this weekend (don't know if it was done previously - I bought it with 58k miles on the ticker). Hope things continue well for you with the synth at this high mileage on a sludge-prone engine (I assume your point was that you changed over to synth at high mileage). If no problems so far, you're probably OK, but IMO you took a big risk. My daily commute is 80 miles, 90+% 55-60 mph.

Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my adddress with the letter 'x')

Reply to
Bill Putney

We traditionally call "sludge" is a substance caused by motor oil exposed to normal motor temperatures plus water and other combustion contamination that forms a mixture of various compounds that participate out of the oil. Over time these compounds can coke-up and form a solid mass.

Synthetic oil tends to avoid this by doing a better job of keeping the compounds in suspension and a better job of dealing with the acids that form when the compounds are exposed to water. Any detergent oil will quickly disolve the hardest deposits if change frequently enough, perhaps every 500 miles, till the sludge and hard mass is desolved.

More likely a problem caused by 1. poor design of the lub system, 2. changed fuel mixtures, 3. failure to use an oil that can deal with the changed fuel mixtures, and 4. not letting the motor come up to full running temperature.

The reports you hear about spark, coolant, etc., are pure magic.

Richard.

Reply to
Richard

Please post your VIN so that nobody reading here wil buy your car when you sell it. Not maintaining a car is like not taking care of your body. It may not fail today, but it will ... just a matter of when.

Matt

Reply to
Matt Whiting

Sure, here ya go:

Xn3o2b3o9d8y4a7s3k9e4d0y5o8u3

You have no idea how I maintain my car. It's running fine, thanks, and as with every single car I've ever owned, well into it's high mileage years. But don't think I don't appreciate your opinion, I have a very special place where I keep opinions just like yours.

Reply to
pawn

127,000 miles on the original coolant is not proper maintenance. You must value my opinion or you wouldn't have bothered to respond. :-)

Matt

Reply to
Matt Whiting

Well, you certainly have an opinion and I encourage that from special people like you.

No, I don't. If that's how you epect to sneak your idiocy through Usenet, sorry, everyone knows that trick. But, hey, I'll give you a chance. Give one good reason why you thought it was a good idea to challenge me on this subject, but not Bill Putney? I mean, he claimed to have not changed his coolant until the same mileage as me. And he said that hours before you offered your well thought out post. Could it be that you see your place in the scheme of things as a small little man that really hasn't yet challenged anyone in the outside world that's willing to trounce you. Because, that's pretty much how I read it. Feel free to enlighten me otherwise.

Reply to
pawn

Matt, don't bother. I'll tell it to him again since he obviously doesen't have it through his thick head yet. Pawn, 127,000 miles on the original coolant is not proper maintenance.

Ted

Reply to
Ted Mittelstaedt

Because I know that Bill is already hopeless. :-)

Also, you made a comment about being only your second oil change. That is even worse, although, the way you phrased it, it could be that you just recently changed to synthetic oil and it is just your second change on synthetic, but that wasn't clear from your post.

Matt

Reply to
Matt Whiting

Aaahhh..a misunderstanding. That *would* be horribly negligent. Sorry.

Reply to
pawn

Gee - thanks, Matt. Actually, a body shop replaced the coolant about 3 years ago when making accident repairs (hose got punctured) - this will be the first time *I* am replacing it. I just didn't feel it was necessary to explain every insiginificant detail. My posts are generally long enough as it is. 8^)

Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my adddress with the letter 'x')

Reply to
Bill Putney

I just couldn't resist! :-) Glad to hear that you aren't a maintenance laggard like the other poster.

Matt

Reply to
Matt Whiting

Toyota PROMISED to take care of this problem. Apparently, it hasn't notified all 3.3 million owners nor is it interested in actually following through with this program! HOT AIR from Toyota! When is Toyota going to really take the responsibility for the defective engines?!?

ALERT! Toyota Engine Oil Gelation (Sludge) Policy....READ!

Has Toyota notified you about its "Customer Support Program" for "Engine Oil Gelation?"

Who: Owners of 1997-2002 Toyota and Lexus vehicles with 3.0L IMZ V-6 engines and all 1997-2001 Toyota vehicles with the now discontinued

2.2L four cylinder engines. Nine models are included.

What: Engine oil sludge accumulation in the oil pan, valve covers, and/or cylinder heads with possible symptoms such as blue smoke on cold start up and oil consumption. Toyota maintains this "oil gelation" is caused by the owner's improper maintenance of the vehicle! The owners disagree.

When: Former, current, and repeat repairs for sludge-related damage are covered for a period of 8 years from date of first sale or lease with unlimited mileage. This coverage includes all reasonable incidental expenses. If questions, consult with affected owners in the groups listed below.

Where: Effective April 3, 2002. Contact the Toyota hotline at

1-888-802-9436. You'll be asked to show a reasonable effort (not all oil change receipts are required) to regularly maintain your vehicle. Toyota considers this a generous offer especially since the owner is at fault! Proceed cautiously.

What if you have received no letter? OR, you want more information?

1) First, notify Toyota via certified letter with return receipt requested and give your case details. Let it know you have NOT received your letter. Ask it when you will get your letter, too.

2) Notify the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration at

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and the Federal Trade Commission at
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NHTSA: 1-800-424-9393.

3) Also, file with the Center for Auto Safety at
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Consumer Affairs at
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Read otherowner stories there.

4) Visit the "Toyota" folder in Cartrackers "Forums" at

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and find the links to articles listed there.You should also post your own story there for others to read.

5) Read the third Automotive News article "Toyota broadens sludge-repair program--Automaker alters V-6, insists neglect is cause" by Richard Truett published on April 4, 2002.

What if you want to do MORE in the way of consumer action? OR, you don't qualify for CSP?

6) Join other owners in the "Toyota Sludge Yahoo Group" at
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Subscribe at" snipped-for-privacy@yahoogroups.com." Post at" snipped-for-privacy@yahoogroups.com." 7) Join "Toyota Owners Unite for Resolution" at
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Read otherowner stories there.

8) Visit the "Complaint Station for Toyota" at

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Please ignore those who arestrongly countering the legitimate complaints of other Toyota owners who have had major problems.

9) Visit Edmund's Town Hall at
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First, you mustobtain a login and password to be able to access the original (over6,000 posts) "Engine Sludge?" discussion that began January 5, 2001. There are other Toyota sludge discussions. All Toyota sludge discussions have been CLOSED at this site as of May, 2002.

10) Read other stories and post your own at

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"Toyota" or "Lexus."

11) C> You have probably heard about oil sludge problems causing engine failure on

sludging???

Reply to
cblake

Get a stake!

Reply to
Joe Pfeiffer

Sludge in an engine is only caused by two things, the Oil and the Engine. If the engine has extreme amounts of blow by (leaking rings or valve seals) it will contaminate the oil with carbon and cause sludge. The second, is not changing the oil frequently enough according to both the manufactures recommendations and your driving habits. The tell tail for a leaky engine is oil consumption, if you are using a quart or more with in an oil change the engine is probably the problem. If you do not the problem is the operator not changing the oil as frequently as needed as required by the manufacturers maintenance schedule. Toyota provides two service intervals as does most manufacturers if an owner does not follow them or exceed the requirements they are at fault.

An owner can check their engine on a diagnostic scope at a specialized repair facility that specializes in engine trouble shooting. The test will tell if it is the engine or the owners failure to follow the maintenance schedule. If it is the engine Toyota will be required to fix it if it is under warranty but if you have a 100K on your engine you cannot expect a manufacturer to take up the slack because an owner failed to use good judgment. Some of the responsibility needs to fall on the owners too for failure to notice the problem or high oil consumption. Our society wants to blame everything on someone else for their own ineptness and faults, Toyota could be at fault for kicking out some poor engines but giving their track record that is highly unlikely only time will tell.

HarryS

Reply to
HarryS

Also, what I failed to mention is that the major cause of blow by (Leaking rings and valve seals) is improper engine break in and not changing your oil, Catch 22 HarryS

Reply to
HarryS

And a silver bullet, just to be safe.

Reply to
Steve

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