RWD vs. FWD in snow and ice

This should start another argum . . . Oops! I mean "promote a full and frank exchange of views."

From our morning paper:

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Note especially:

"First of all, for anyone still piloting a rear-wheel drive vehicle -- GET OFF THE ROAD! There, I said it. In this age of front-wheel, all-wheel and four-wheel drive, you are nothing more than an obstacle, a fish-tailing hazard for the rest of us to dodge. All we can hope is that you don't bounce off us as you pirouette into the median. My advice is to call in sick and leave that automotive relic in the garage until the sun comes out in April. Or drive to work in reverse."

Perce

Reply to
Percival P. Cassidy
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Damn - that article sounds like it could have been written by someone here!! Maybe not the side of the argument, but the "writing style".

Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my adddress with the letter 'x')

Reply to
Bill Putney

How soon we forget I remember a time that is all there was rear wheel drive that is. There seemed to be no difficulty in the winter you put chains on the cars or studded tires or had your winter set and you just went. May be it is the bone head drivers not the vehicles that is the problem.

I watched a guy this morning in his 05 mustang just spin and spin and spin trying to get out of his 50 foot driveway and it was only a 3 degree slope. Then he gave me a look why don't I help? Well, it was free entertainment and I am easily amused. Now is it the cars fault or the bone head behind the wheel, would it have been prudent to salt and sand the driveway instead of burning rubber?

So I ask how is it the fault of the auto it has no consciousness, it does not operate with free will, it needs a bone head operator to hose things up and by your own admission you must be a bone head also.

HarryS

Reply to
HarryS

How soon we forget I remember a time that is all there was rear wheel drive that is. There seemed to be no difficulty in the winter you put chains on the cars or studded tires or had your winter set and you just went. May be it is the bone head drivers not the vehicles that is the problem.

I watched a guy this morning in his 05 mustang just spin and spin and spin trying to get out of his 50 foot driveway and it was only a 3 degree slope. Then he gave me a look why don't I help? Well, it was free entertainment and I am easily amused. Now is it the cars fault or the bone head behind the wheel, would it have been prudent to salt and sand the driveway instead of burning rubber?

So I ask how is it the fault of the auto it has no consciousness, it does not operate with free will, it needs a bone head operator to hose things up and by your own admission you must be a bone head also.

HarryS

Reply to
HarryS

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People who can't be bothered to buy proper WINTER tires for ice & snow should stay home. FWD or RWD, it doesn't matter.

Reply to
Grouchy

Blah, blah, blahbitty blah blah.

A well-implemented RWD car is better than a poorly-implemented FWD car, and there are plenty of both types.

A car with proper winter tires is better than a car with "all season" tires in treacherous winter conditions, whether the front or rear wheels be driven.

A car driven thoughtfully, attentively and skillfully is better than a car lackadaisically aimed by a clueless, ignorant, self-distracted idiot

And that's really the end of the argument. Debating RWD vs. FWD misses the point entirely.

Reply to
Daniel J. Stern

Bullshit. If I can drive a Porsche 944 with summer tires (not that I recommend that, mind you - I thought that I was going to have a Golf winter beater by now) why can't anyone else around here seem to navigate their way through the snow with their FWD and AWD vehicles? Driver ability and familiarity with snow driving counts for a lot.

nate

Reply to
Nate Nagel

In late 1999 my dailer driver changed from an early 70's B body with a 318 (which I had been driving for the previous 6 years) to a 2000 300M.

In the 5.5 winters that I've been driving the 300, there have been 3 or 4 winters where several times the snowfall was such that I'm pretty sure I would have been stuck in a RWD car equipped with the best snow tires. (chains are unheard of here, and studs were made illegal more than 20 years ago).

For the past 3.5 winters I've put snow tires on the 300 (on 16" plain steel wheels). I think the snow tires, combined with FWD, make the difference between being able to drive out of my driveway and get to the nearest plowed feeder or arterial road after a foot of snow falls the previous night. This exact situation has happened several times this winter, and I'm making my own tracks (not driving in a set of tracks created by a few 4x4's already).

I'm torn when it comes to whether or not I'd want my next daily driver to be a V-8 RWD. I don't want the extra cost, dead weight, and complexity of AWD when I know I'd only use for the very very very few miles in the winter. As most of my miles are urban (stop-light to stop-light) a RWD V-8 really wouldn't get the sort of work-out it's capable of. The 3.5l 250 hp V-6 in the 300 generally gets me up to speed fast enough given congested urban driving.

If I weren't faced with the practically 100% certainty of several heavy snow dumps each year (and most of my driving continued to be on pretty flat terrain), then going to RWD for my next car would be a much easier decision to make (I really would rather drive RWD).

So when the snow falls and the plows haven't gotten to your neighborhood yet, my experience is that FWD (with ordinary "all-season" tires) is either equal to, or marginally better than, RWD with good snows.

However, FWD with good snows (Alpin or Blizzak, even 2 to 3 years old) will get you through deep snow in a totally amazing way that will leave RWD's hopelessly stuck.

Reply to
MoPar Man
050129 1759 - Daniel J. Stern posted:

And talk about "a car lackadaisically aimed by a clueless, ignorant, self-distracted idiot", I was watching a news report about a police car that was involved in an accident. There were several witnesses talking with the news reporter who explained that the patrol car proceeded cautiously to each light with his siren and lights on, and at the scene, he slowed his car and then moved it through the intersection against the red light. A car approaching the intersection slammed into him, broadsiding the patrol car and sending both officers to the hospital. One of the witnesses noted that the offending driver was using a cellphone at the time. His ass is toast. This may just lead to some legislation here in Michigan outlawing the use of cellphones while driving a car.

Reply to
indago
050129 1824 - MoPar Man posted:

Recalling back a few years -- actually around 1944 -- 3 or 4 of us kids went down the street a block or two after a snowfall of around 4 or 5 inches and when it was dark out we hid behind the bushes at a street intersection that had an incline and waited for a car to come up the hill. It was a T intersection and the car had to go either left or right without stopping -- regardless of the stop sign -- or he would get stuck there. When the car would slow down, 2 of us would sneak out from behind the bushes after he went by and would get behind the car and hold him back so he would get stuck in the snow. Then we would appear out of nowhere and say we would help him up around the corner for 25¢ -- hey, that was pretty big money back in those days. He would hand us a coin out of the window and we would push him up around the corner. We did this with several cars -- I recall one driver saying that it was robbery considering that we had held him back in the first place, but he paid anyway. It was really a beautiful winter night -- not really too cold out, and we were doing quite well, but I noticed down the street somebody was working in their garage. The door was open and a bright light was on and he was banging away on something. While we were hiding in the bushes, a Ford Model A pickup backed out of that garage and into the street. It came up to the intersection where we were and I and another crept out behind him and grabbed onto the bumper to hold him back. He dragged our ass up around that corner without letup, laughing all the while. Finally we let go and he continued on his way. I looked down at the snow and saw a deep, knobby tire tread. I had never seen anything like this before, but it was my first introduction to a knobby snow tire tread. He must have been watching us from his garage and decided to give his new snow tires the acid test.

Reply to
indago

Though this was posted a couple of weeks ago in r.a.d., I believe that this "takes the cake:"

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21 Cars Involved In Messy Pileup

...

"'As soon as I cleared that little bridge, as soon as I got over that, I didn't have any control over my car. No steering, no brakes, nothing.

*So I just jumped out of my car*,' said driver Kim McWilliams."
Reply to
Arif Khokar

Good effin' luck. The best you'll do is a useless feel-good law against using a *hand-held* celphone while driving -- not even a half-decent compromise, 'cause it's known and robustly shown that the distraction is from the phone conversation, not the hold-in-the-hand phoneset.

Reply to
Daniel J. Stern

self-distracted idiot", I was watching a news report about a=AD police car that was involved in an accident. There were several witnesses t=ADalking with the news reporter who explained that the patrol car proceeded ca=ADutiously to each light with his siren and lights on, and at the scene, he slo=ADwed his car and then moved it through the intersection against the red light=AD. A car approaching the intersection slammed into him, broadsiding t=ADhe patrol car and sending both officers to the hospital. One of the witne=ADsses noted that the offending driver was using a cellphone at the time. His=AD ass is toast. This may just lead to some legislation here in Michigan outl=ADawing the use of cellphones while driving a car.

I hope you're right about his ass being toast but i doubt it. The DA knows that lots of people drive while yakking on a cell phone and that makes it tough to get a conviction in a case like that. No way a juror will vote guilty to a crime that the juror also regularly commits.

Reply to
Laura Bush murdered her boy friend

All I can say is, getting stuck is 15% equipment and 85% stupidity. So if you're drive a RWD car this winter, you can (and should) offset that by being slightly smarter than average.

Reply to
Joe

Sadly, it's snowing *again* today (dang, I can't remember having this much snow in Maryland before) so in my case the "smarter than average" is being somewhat offset by "pushing one's luck by going out when it might be more prudent to curl up on the couch with a good book and some Irish coffee." Not only does my neighborhood not get plowed (not a big deal, really, as the snow usually melts off in a day or so) but the locals here that do drive in snow are more dangerous than the snow itself.

@#$%#^&%^&* job... (I was going to go visit my parents for Xmas, and at the same time pick up a winter beater with proper snow tires, which is still sitting safely in their driveway four hours away as I ended up not only working through my "vacation" but about 20 hours overtime a week at that.)

nate

Reply to
Nate Nagel

Interstate 90 running west from the Hudson River raises in elevation rather quickly. 99.99% of the time rear, front and all wheel drive take this trip just fine. But when there is wet slush and rain over a very cold road surface even the best rear wheel drive vehicles have some trouble. Those BMW's with their wide summer tires are a joy to behold as they try to inch their way westward while the rear of the vehicle takes off in all directions.

With the wrong tires and a bad driver front wheel drive and all wheel drive can at least look less dumb trying to make it. The rear wheel drive vehicles are useless. But with superb winter tires, traction control and a skilled driver, rear wheel drive can get the job done. For my kids I want them driving here in snow country with either front or all wheel drive.

Richard.

Reply to
Richard

We were involved in a hill accident like that many years ago. As we tried to get out of the car we could not even stand on the slick black ice. You have to experience it to believe it. Took 5 hours for a state trooper to come. He had gotten a call to come to work but was told to be ultra careful. But even he had an accident pulling out of his garage. We had had no warning. There was a spotty freezing rain episode but the sun was out and the sky was blue as we drove up the hill to find pure ice and cars all over the place on the downside.

Reply to
Art

Well thank goodness he was just using a mobile phone and not the police radio! Imagine how distracting a conversation with dispatch must be, and what if the conversation included urgent matters....

Reply to
Karla

Model A was actually a SUV. Made to be driven where there were no roads.

Reply to
Art

[Top posting corrected] > We had had no warning. There was a spotty freezing rain episode but > the sun was out and the sky was blue as we drove up the hill to find > pure ice and cars all over the place on the downside.

I'm not saying that it was unreasonable to expect that one would end up losing control on ice. I am saying that the person was an idiot for jumping out of their car while it was still moving.

Reply to
Arif Khokar

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