Valvoline Transmission Fluid ATF+3 Chrysler Approved?

ATF+3 has been available thru aftermarket for some time. The later (and better) fluid is ATF+4 - which up until this month *was* only available thru DC. There was a press release in August from DC saying that ATF+4 is licensed for aftermarket sale starting this month.

Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')

BTW: in Germany DC gave out a warning to their dealers NOT to mix ATF+3 and ATF+4! So if you run ATF+3 you need to stick to it or you have to do a complete tranny flush with ATF+4.

Sven

I have 1996 and 1999 Chrysler vehicles that both came from the factory with ATF+3. I've changed the fluid in both using drop the pan and replace the fluid and filter method 2 times each (30 and 60K miles) and both times I've used ATF+4. I know this does not prove much, but I've suffered no ill effects on wither vehicle. As I recall, (the synthetic or semi-synthetic) AT+4 gallon container stated it could be mixed with ATF+3.

I'd like to understand why they issued the warning and if it was for any good reason, or just to charge more to require the flush first.

Bob

FWIW, the DC TSB No. 21-004-04 says: "NOTE :ATF+4(R) is compatible with ATF+3 and ATF+2. ATF+4(R) can be used to top off vehicles that currently have ATF+2 or ATF+3. Do not use ATF+2 or ATF+3 to top off vehicles that have ATF+4(R) fluid."

Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')

Bullfeathers. ATF+4 and ATF+3 are entirely compatible. In fact, +4 supercedes +3. The only "no no" is that you shouldn't use +3 in a transmission designed for +4, but the other way around works fine.

Hi Bob,

From DC:

Quote:

TSB-NUMBER: 21-004-04 Date: March 16, 2004

THIS BULLETIN SUPERSEDES TECHNICAL SERVICE BULLETIN 21-006-01, DATED JUNE 29, 2001.

(...)

DISCUSSION: A new transmission fluid (ATF +4 - Type 9602) has been developed and is being used as a factory fill in the above models. **Plants that build rear wheel drive models (other than Prowler) will introduce ATF +4 throughout the 2000 calendar year.** This Technical Service Bulletin will be updated as additional models are introduced to ATF +4.

(...)

NOTE: ATF +4 MUST ALWAYS BE USED IN VEHICLES THAT WERE ORIGINALLY FILLED WITH ATF +4. USING ATF +3 IN THESE VEHICLES WILL DECREASE THE BENEFITS OF THIS NEW FLUID.

AT THIS TIME, VEHICLES ORIGINALLY FILLED WITH ATF +2 OR ATF +3 SHOULD CONTINUE TO BE SERVICED WITH ATF +3 - TYPE 7176.

(...)

unquote

Major difference from what I can see between +3 and +4 seems to be that

+4 is thinner than +3 as it is semi-synth.

Filling +4 does not necessarily mean that it will kill your tranny, but DC does NOT recommend it. Apart from this, some should even run fine on Dexron III...

Here the problem might be more severe as the tranny has to stand higher speeds on the Autobahn and therefore higher temp than at yours. Here 80 mph is the official "recommended" average speed for the Autobahn...

Personally I would NOT fill +4 in a +3 tranny - and especially not mix it.

Sven

You should read tru it to the bottom! Did it for you, see above.

Sven

What does

mean?

It means "incorrect information." A more polite expression than "bullsh*t," which means pretty much the same thing.

Look at the dates. The TSB you quoted is a 2001 TSB- outdated. The later TSB says that ATF+4 can be used in cars built for ATF+3.

It WAS taken out of the DC TSB No. 21-004-04. Unless you say that DC always fully quotes OLD TSB in the NEW ones without stating this, I take it for the latest info.

Here is the text again, with some highlights:

===================== TSB-NUMBER: 21-004-04 =====================

Date: March 16, 2004

** THIS BULLETIN ** (means the one which as well has the text below) SUPERSEDES TECHNICAL SERVICE BULLETIN 21-006-01, DATED JUNE 29, 2001.

(...)

DISCUSSION: A new transmission fluid (ATF +4 - Type 9602) has been developed and is being used as a factory fill in the above models. **Plants that build rear wheel drive models (other than Prowler) will introduce ATF +4 throughout the 2000 calendar year.** This Technical Service Bulletin will be updated as additional models are introduced to ATF +4.

(...)

NOTE: ATF +4 MUST ALWAYS BE USED IN VEHICLES THAT WERE ORIGINALLY FILLED WITH ATF +4. USING ATF +3 IN THESE VEHICLES WILL DECREASE THE BENEFITS OF THIS NEW FLUID.

AT THIS TIME, VEHICLES ORIGINALLY FILLED WITH ATF +2 OR ATF +3 SHOULD CONTINUE TO BE SERVICED WITH ATF +3 - TYPE 7176.

Sven

p.s.: thanks for the bullshit. If you want to be impolite, "just do it" and do not try to beat around the bush.

Why do you chose to ignore what I already quoted from the TSB that you are only partially quoting. Here it is again: "NOTE :ATF+4(R) is compatible with ATF+3 and ATF+2. ATF+4(R) can be used to top off vehicles that currently have ATF+2 or ATF+3. Do not use ATF+2 or ATF+3 to top off vehicles that have ATF+4(R) fluid."

Much of the stuff you quoted is *NOT* in the TSB 21-004-04 that I have access. For your reference, below my signature in this post, I have pasted the *full* *text* of the TSB 21-004-04 (the only thing missing is the table of vehiclesa and a one-line table giving the MOPAR part number for the ATF+4).

Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')

* * * ****FULL TEXT OF TSB 21-004-04 FOLLOWS**** * * *

A/T - ATF Usage List

NUMBER: 21-004-04

GROUP: Transmission

DATE: March 16, 2004

THIS BULLETIN SUPERSEDES TECHNICAL SERVICE BULLETIN 21-006-01, DATED JUNE 29, 2001, WHICH SHOULD BE REMOVED FROM YOUR FILES. THIS IS A COMPLETE REVISION AND NO ASTERISKS HAVE BEEN ADDED TO HIGHLIGHT REVISIONS.

SUBJECT: Automatic Transmission Fluid Usage ATF+4 (Type 9602)

MODELS:

NOTE : This bulletin applies to all transmissions manufactured by Chrysler except for 1999 and earlier minivans with the 41TE/AE transmission. This Service Bulletin DOES NOT apply to all AWD transmissions, Sprinter transmissions, Crossfire transmissions and WG bodies equipped with a W5J400 or NAGI transmission (sales code DGJ).

DISCUSSION:

A new transmission fluid (ATF+4(R) - Type 9602) has been developed and is being used as factory fill for all vehicles with Chrysler automatic transmissions. It is recommended that all vehicles with Chrysler automatic transmissions EXCEPT FOR THOSE LISTED ABOVE be serviced with ATF+4(R).

NOTE :ATF+4(R) must always be used in vehicles that were originally filled with ATF+4(R).

NOTE :Service intervals do not change. The service interval currently in effect for a given vehicle should continue to be followed.

NOTE :ATF+4(R) is compatible with ATF+3 and ATF+2. ATF+4(R) can be used to top off vehicles that currently have ATF+2 or ATF+3. Do not use ATF+2 or ATF+3 to top off vehicles that have ATF+4(R) fluid.

BENEFITS

^ Better anti-wear properties

^ Improved rust/corrosion prevention

^ Controls oxidation

^ Eliminates deposits

^ Controls friction

^ Retains anti-foaming properties

^ Superior properties for low temperature operation

FLUID COLOR

Mopar ATF+4(R) is a World Class Fluid having exceptional durability. However, the red dye used in ATF+4(R) is not permanent; as the fluid ages it may become darker or appear brown in color. ATF+4(R) also has a unique odor that may change with age. With ATF+4(R) fluid, color and odor are no longer indicators of fluid condition and do not support a fluid change.

PARTS REQUIRED:

POLICY: Information Only

Disclaimer :This bulletin is supplied as technical information only and is not an authorization for repair.

Its still incorrect. A TSB stating that ATF+4 is backward-compatible has been quoted here many times in the past year or so.

See my post just above this one - I quote the TSB in its entirety (nothing except tables left out).

Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')

Jolly good, that makes one of you. The rest of us, who can actually read what DC writes on the topic and understand the concept of later information superseding earlier information, will carry on using +4 in all those transmissions for which DC currently recommends it, which means virtually all transmissions originally filled with ATF+, ATF+2, and ATF+3.

It means you don't know what you're talking about.

So we have 2 TSB's? From which my text was taken, can you compare this?=20 Full quote below.

Here DC apparently ordered dealers to completely flush trannys where=20 they filled in ATF+4 on top of ATF+3.

And which service intervals would you go for with ATF+4?

Sven

Here is what I have: =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

TSB-NUMBER: 21-004-04 Date: March 16, 2004

THIS BULLETIN SUPERSEDES TECHNICAL SERVICE BULLETIN 21-006-01, DATED=20 JUNE 29, 2001.

GROUP: Transmission

SUBJECT: Automatic Transmission Fluid Usage ATF+4 (Type 9602)

MODELS:

1989 - 1995 (AA) Spirit/Acclaim/Lebaron Sedan 1989 - 2003 (AB) Ram Van/Wagon 1989 - 1993 (AC) Dynasty/New Yorker/New Yorker Salon 1989 - 1993 (AD) Ram Truck 1989 - 1994 (AG) Daytona 1989 (AH) Lancer/Lebaron GTS 1989 - 1995 (AJ) Lebaron Coupe/Lebaron Convertible 1989 - 1990 (AK) Aries/Reliant 1989 - 1990 (AL) Horizon/Omni 1989 (AM) Diplomat/Gran Fury/New Yorker fifth Avenue 1989 - 2004 (AN) Dakota 1989 - 1994 (AP) Shadow/Sundance 1990 - 1991 (AQ) Maserati 1990 - 1993 (AY) Imperial/New Yorker Fifth Avenue 1994 - 2003 (BR/BE) Ram Truck 2004 - 2005 (CS) Pacifica 1998 - 2003 (DN) Durango 2002 - 2004 (DR) Ram Truck 1995 - 2000 (FJ) Sebring/Avenger/Talon 2000 (GS) Chrysler Voyager (International Market) 2004 (HB) Durango 1995 - 2000 (JA) Cirrus/Stratus/Breeze 2001- 2004 (JR) Sebring Sedan & Convertible/Stratus Sedan 1996 - 2000 (JX) Sebring Convertible 2002 - 2004 (KJ) Liberty 1993 - 2004 (LH) Concorde/Intrepid/Vision/LHS/New Yorker /300M 2005 (LX) Chrysler 300/Magnum 2000 (NS) Town & Country/Caravan/Voyager 1995 - 2004 (PL) Neon 2002 - 2003 (PG) PT Cruiser (International Markets) 2001 - 2005 (PT) PT Cruiser 1997 - 2002 (PR) Prowler 2001 - 2005 (RG) Chrysler Voyager (International Markets) 2001 - 2005 (RS) Town & Country/Caravan/Voyager 1997 - 2004 (TJ) Wrangler 2001 - 2004 (WG) Grand Cherokee (International Markets) 1999 - 2004 (WJ) Grand Cherokee 1989 - 1995 (YJ) Wrangler 1996 - 1998 (ZG) Grand Cherokee (International Markets) 1994 - 1998 (ZJ) Grand Cherokee/Grand Wagoneer

NOTE: This bulletin applies to all transmissions manufactured by=20 Chrysler except for 1999 and earlier minivans with the 41TE/AE=20 transmission , This Service Bulletin DOES NOT apply to all AW-4=20 transmissions, Sprinter transmissions, Crossfire transmissions and WG=20 bodies equipped with a 5J400 or NAG1 transmission (sales code DGJ).

DISCUSSION: A new transmission fluid (ATF+4=AE - Type 9602) has been developed and is= =20 being used as factory fill for all vehicles with Chrysler automatic=20 transmissions.It is recommended that all vehicles with Chrysler=20 automatic transmissions EXCEPT FOR THOSE LISTED ABOVE be serviced with=20 ATF+4=AE.

NOTE: ATF+4=AE must always be used in vehicles that were originally fille= d=20 with ATF+4=AE.

NOTE: Service intervals do not change. The service interval currently in =

effect for a given vehicle should continue to be followed.

NOTE: ATF+4=AE is compatible with ATF+3 and ATF+2. ATF+4 can be used to=20 top off vehicles that currently have ATF+2 or ATF+3. Do not use ATF+2 or =

ATF+3 to top off vehicles that have ATF+4=AE fluid.

BENEFITS =2E.Better anti-wear properties =2E.Improved rust/corrosion prevention =2E.Controls oxidation =2E.Eliminates deposits =2E.Controls friction =2E.Retains anti-foaming properties =2E.Superior properties for low temperature operation

FLUID COLOR Mopar ATF+4=AE is a World Class Fluid having exceptional durability.=20 However, the red dyen used in ATF+4=AE is not permanent; as the fluid age= s=20 it may become darker or appear brown in color. ATF+4=AE also has a unique= =20 odor that may change with age. With ATF+4=AE fluid, color and odor are no= =20 longer indicators of fluid condition and do not support a fluid change.

PARTS REQUIRED: Qty. Part No. Description

AR 05013457AA Fluid, Transmission, ATF+4=AE (Type 9602),Quart

SUBJECT: New Automatic Transmission Fluid Usage (ATF +4 Type 9602)

**NOTE: THIS INFORMATION APPLIES TO MODELS AS FOLLOWS:**

MODELS BUILD DATE

**GS** **AFTER NOVEMBER 8, 1999 (MDH1108XX)** JA AFTER SEPTEMBER 7, 1998 =

(MDH0907XX)

**JX** **AFTER MAY 21, 1999 (MDH0521XX)** LH AFTER JULY 20, 1998 (MDH0720= XX) **NS** **AFTER OCTOBER 10, 1999 (MDH1010XX) WINDSOR ASSY PLANT** **AFTER OCTOBER 18, 1999 (MDH1018XX) ST LOUIS ASSY PLANT** 11TH POSITION OF VIN - R =3D WINDSOR/B =3D ST LOUIS **PL** **AFTER APRIL 24, 1999 (MDH0424XX)** PR AFTER JULY 20, 1998=20 (MDH0720XX)

DISCUSSION: A new transmission fluid (ATF +4 - Type 9602) has been developed and is=20 being used as a factory fill in the above models. **Plants that build=20 rear wheel drive models (other than Prowler) will introduce ATF +4=20 throughout the 2000 calendar year.** This Technical Service Bulletin=20 will be updated as additional models are introduced to ATF +4.

**Always refer to this, or vehicle specific TSB's for the correct=20 transmission fluid usage whenever performing service that requires fluid =

for 1999 or later models.**

NOTE: ATF +4 MUST ALWAYS BE USED IN VEHICLES THAT WERE ORIGINALLY FILLED =

WITH ATF +4. USING ATF +3 IN THESE VEHICLES WILL DECREASE THE BENEFITS=20 OF THIS NEW FLUID.

AT THIS TIME, VEHICLES ORIGINALLY FILLED WITH ATF +2 OR ATF +3 SHOULD=20 CONTINUE TO BE SERVICED WITH ATF +3 - TYPE 7176. **VEHICLE SPECIFIC=20 TSB'S WILL BE ISSUED TO ANNOUNCE THE USE OF ATF +4 FOR EARLIER YEARS.**

The p/n for quarts of ATF +4 is 05013457AA. Following are the added=20 benefits of ATF +4:

RECOMMENDED SERVICE INTERVALS a.. Normal Maintenance (Schedule A) - None (Fill For Life) b.. Severe Maintenance (Schedule B) - Fluid/Filter 77,000 km (48,000 mile= s)

ADDITIONAL BENEFITS a.. Better anti-wear properties b.. Improved rust/corrosion prevention c.. Controls oxidation d.. Eliminates deposits e.. Controls friction f.. Retains anti-foaming properties g.. Superior properties for low temperature operation

FLUID COLOR a.. ATF +4 is red in color as previously used transmission fluid. NOTE: THE RED DYE USED IN ATF +4 FLUID IS NOT A PERMANENT QUALITY. AS=20 FLUID AGES, IT CAN BECOME DARKER OR MAY EVEN APPEAR LIGHT BROWN. DISCOLORATION ALONE DOES NOT INDICATE THE NEED FOR A FLUID CHANGE. IF=20 THE COLOR CHANGE IS ACCOMPANIED BY A BURNT SMELL AND/OR A DETERIORATION=20 IN SHIFT QUALITY, NEW FLUID MAY BE REQUIRED.

POLICY: Information Only

If you get ATF+4 for the same price or have too much money or working with DC I take this for granted.

What sense does it make? Can you extend intervals?

In what you quoted, TSB 21-004-04 ends with "...PARTS REQUIRED: Qty. Part No. Description...AR 05013457AA Fluid, Transmission, ATF+4® (Type 9602),Quart". Everything after that, starting with "SUBJECT: New Automatic Transmission Fluid Usage (ATF +4 Type 9602)...", is from an earlier TSB and is not part of 21-004-04. I can see why someone would be confused if that all was run together as one TSB.

The TSB says you can top of ATF+3 with ATF+4. Does that mean you can add up to 1.2 qt.? 1 qt.? 5 qts.? In other words, are small amounts of ATF+4 in with ATF+3 OK, but, say a 50-50 mix is not? They don't explicitly say it, but the implication is that you can add any amount of ATF+4 to one that can take ATF+4 but which still has ATF+3 in it. They do say that you should not add ATF+3 to one that has ATF+4 in it (implication being one that came with it from the factory). They aren't real explicit, but I'd say that the TSB does not justify an order to flush out any that had ATF+4 added on top of ATF+3. If that is indeed necessary, then that is information beyond TSB 21-004-04. I can't help but feel that someone in Europe is mis-intrerpreting the TSB (to have the mixed fluid flushed out). Perhaps they are only seeing the two TSB's run together and that is resulting in confusion and stupid requirements to flush mixed fluids.

For reference, the FSM for my '99 Concorde (LH) with 42LE tranny in it says the tranny fluid and filter are to be changed every 48k miles (75km).

Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')