C2 - Hmmm.

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Saw a C2 "in the flesh" for the first time today.
Pistachio Green.
Hmmmm. It looks very like a VW Lupo, when seen from the other side of a
motorway. At least that strange side window set-up doesn't look as bad in the flesh as it did in the initial photos, though.
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Message i.d.:< inspired me,

of
as
You are the first I know that has seen one IRL. From the pics I have seen I think it could be good selling car. That odd little window gives the little beast some attitude. It Is a Cit so it Must have attitude.
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Over here in Germany the C2 is on sale. I had the opportunity to drive one briefly (with Diesel engine and 5 speed manual gearbox). My impression: Very good seat position, even for large drivers (I am 2.04 metres tall), quite stiff and bumpy suspension, nice interior styling, but less than perfect finish. The Diesel engine was quite vivid, but I drove it only in city traffic. Anyway, compared to a VW Lupo, I'd rather buy the C2 because of the very good seat position.
Frank
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Frank Kemper ( snipped-for-privacy@gmx.de) gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying :

That's not a Citroen!

Ah. Maybe it is....

Whatever happened to the *REAL* Citroen, when the only advantage over a VW is the seat position?
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dies gedichtet:

It seems that Citroen did not want to make some lifestyle statement, but only a competitive microcar. If you compare a Citroen AX and a VW Polo of the same vintage, you will notice that the AX is simply mediocre. If you compare a C2 to a contemporary Lupo, you will notice that they are about the same quality level. I think this is the real advantage.
Frank
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Oh, meet me! I've even driven one!
It was a 1.4i with sensodrive. The sensodrive as automatic is not impressive. As automatic gearboxes do, they don't change gear when I want them to and it even is slow at it. It didn't even understand that when I eased off of the accelerator (or released it completely) that I wanted it to change to a higher gear.
If you use it as a 'manual automatic' (changing the gear manually) it is acceptable, but it's not as fast as an experienced driver can do with a manual gearbox. In combination with the flippers on the steeringwheel it's very acceptable though. I do prefer this sensordrive over a complete automatic that I have no manual influence on. I'm not yet sure if I prefer it over a manual gearbox.
Driving the car was ok. The 1.4 performs as expected, but I could not get to the specified topspeed. Came to within 8 km/h where the speedo gave 3 more. The car was brand new so I won't complain. Roadholding was also what you can expect, even with 150-160 km/h on the Autobahn (during rain).
Nice detail about the sensodrive: you can drive away from standstill in 2nd. Dunno about the clutch, but it will save you half a mpg.
Maarten
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I've just been having a look at it on the Citroen.co.uk website.
How in god's name do they get away with ABS only being standard on the VTR in the C2 range? It's not even an option on the L spec, ffs.
Same on the Paxo - only available as an option on the VTR, standard on the VTS. Not available on the C3 Desire. Not *at all* on the Berlingo.
Don't tell me it's cost - it's only 350 as an option on the C2s.
Criminal. Unforgivable.
Forget windbags (umpteen of the useless soddin' things standard on all C2 specs) and silly automatic hazard warning light activation - ABS should be standard on *everything* - it's the one half-sensible and useful *real* step forward in car safety. All the rest is techno-frippery-bollocks - merely bolting the barn door after the horse has bolted.
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In alt.autos.citroen on Monday 17 Nov 2003 10:48 pm, Adrian

Practice 'cadence braking'. Even works on pedal-cycles.
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Whiskers ( snipped-for-privacy@operamail.com) gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying :


You know that, I know that. Does the average buyer and driver of a base spec C2?
In a *real* panic situation, there's not many people who'll do more than just slam the anchors on and swear loudly - I know I never manage to cadence brake, even though I can happily do it all day long when "practicing".
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In alt.autos.citroen on Tuesday 18 Nov 2003 10:36 am, Adrian
snip

You have a point.
Perhaps skid control should be part of basic driver training and driving tests; the 'emergency stop' part of the test I took here in the UK, was a joke; as long as you didn't actually crash, the examiner would just tick off another item.
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Whiskers ( snipped-for-privacy@operamail.com) gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying :

Paying attention and using indicators are part of the test and training - but it doesn't mean that anybody actually *does* them after they've passed, does it?
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In alt.autos.citroen on Tuesday 18 Nov 2003 5:00 pm, Adrian

Most seem to, most of the time - or the carnage would be far worse. At least everyone with a UK driving licence has been taught those things (apart from those who managed to get away with a 'ringer' taking the test on their behalf).
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gurgled happily, sounding much like

spec
cadence
Two years ago I had an accident. Someone crossed-over my way where he might not cross. The surface of the road was brandnew and my car slided like a slede right in the side of the other car. I was pumping and steering but it didn't help. After that accident I had only two wishes: a new citron and ABS. Two months after I had my new car and a similiar situation appeared and I could drive the way I wanted and so no collaps happened. That was my first accident after 35 years of driving a car.
D.J.
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<snip>

<snip>
...and there's the problem. Cadence braking is all well and good in theory but the average human being can't think rationally and quickly enough when faced with a "life-threatening" situation. Pumping and steering never works on account of the fact that we never lift fully off the brakes long enough for the tyres to regain grip and alter the direction of the car.
Cadence braking is no longer taught (or at least it wasn't for me) in a pump and steer type operation. It is now a sort of three step process.
1. Sh*t yourself and jam on the anchors has hard as possible (resulting in a lock-up) 2. Apply lots of lock in the most appropriate direction for avoidance. (take a guess and pray or go with instinct - generally to the other side of the road) 3. Release brake until car starts to turn. 4. Jam on the anchors again. 5. Apply opposite lock to control the (now sideways) skid. 6. Release brake again and car rights itself and possibly slides other side on. 7. Jam on the anchors again and the car should hopefully slide to a halt back on your side of the road.
I know that is seven steps but when you do it for real it actually feels like three!!
ABS is so much cleverer than a human (masses of processing power dedicated to a very simple task and not influenced by self-preservation, fear of death or whatever) in the situation and can ensure that every release of the brakes is effective.
However, NEVER EVER TRUST ABS! The guys I did skid-pan training with told me all sorts of horror stories about cars with ABS. Obviously the first thing these guys did when they bought new cars was to take them on the pan. I can't remember now what makes were involved (but I don't recall any Cits!) but we were told of...
1. One brand new car sold as having ABS. It had the badges to prove it. It didn't have the hardware... 2. One brand new car with the hardware but when taken on the track and pointed straight towards a cone and the brakes jammed on - gave one or two braking pulses... then the pedal went to the floor and gave nothing more. The cone died! 3. Several second hand cars where although the ABS warning light performs as it should, the ABS was actually knackered and the car behaved as a standard vehicle. 4. Several second hand cars where the light had been wired straight to the battery light to disguise ABS faults for the MOT.
...the moral of course is to find a safe, slippy and above all empty piece of road and jump on your brakes to get a feel for what your car does.
HTH
CAS
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In alt.autos.citroen on Wednesday 19 Nov 2003 9:56 am, CAS
snip

Those horror stories are worth remembering.
High-tech isn't infallible, and if we rely on it too much then we can get into a lot of trouble when it fails. Even power-assisted brakes and steering can give the driver a nasty shock when they stop working. I've had it happen; if your engine stops then there is no power for the steering or brakes. At least I knew that brute force would work, because I learned to drive on cars built in the '50s and '60s which required brute force all the time (one of them even had a lever on the dashboard to work the windscreen wipers, as they were powered by the vacuum in the inlet manifold of the side-valve engine, so the wipers stopped when the car was going up hill). I still double-declutch sometimes, too ;))
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wrote:

piece
steering
Errrmm... this is alt.autos.CITROEN! I suspect that many of the "big-cit" owners on here will have perfected the technique of "no-steering-no-brakes-no-suspension" driving having suffered terminal hydraulic failure! I know I've had at least two BXs and one XM do it to me (and on more than one occasion each...)

Sorry, the earliest I've got is a '71!

manifold
Nice!
Luddite! ;-)
CAS
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CAS ( snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com) gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying :


Heh. Luckily, I've *never* had to do that through 4 CXs, a GSA and now an XM.
I have had CX ABS go paranoid, though, resulting in a memorable trip down the side of a mountain (Long Mynd, in Shropshire) - big drop down on one side, single vehicle width road - trying to brake, but the ABS puttering away and speed gathering inexorably, due to a dodgy sensor.


I've got a late 80s car with no power anything. Equally, there's mid 50s cars with hydraulic *everything*.
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In alt.autos.citroen on Thursday 20 Nov 2003 10:34 am, Adrian

snip
Scary! Brake problems are one reason I prefer manual gears.

There are always exceptions - usually rare or expensive. There were hydraulic brake systems in the thirties, I think, and at least one model with built-in hydraulic jacks on each corner, which certainly says something about tyre technology. I don't think power-assisted brakes came in until disc brakes on all wheels were introduced.
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Whiskers ( snipped-for-privacy@operamail.com) gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying :




Actually, I was thinking entirely on-topic for this group.
2cvs never had brake servos, power steering (bwahahahahaha!), or any similar techno-frippery. The DS had hydraulic power steering, full power brakes, hydraulic clutch and gearchange in '56.

Far from so. We'll even exclude the DS, with drum rear and the first production disks on the front. Power brakes were de rigeur in the states for years before then, with vacuum servos being introduced on the V16 Cadillac in 1931. Even well into the 60s, the Americans were still slapping drum brakes the size of a shirt button onto "sports cars"
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In alt.autos.citroen on Friday 21 Nov 2003 8:09 am, Adrian

True; the 2CV is a 1940s design, basically. I've always thought of the DS as being rare and expensive; I don't think I've seen more than a handful in the flesh.

Ah, well, I don't know much about American cars. They're on a different planet.
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