C3 Problems

Steve (s snipped-for-privacy@hotmail.com) gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying :

Have you tried a different dealer?

modern citroens are getting a terrible name in the trade, much worse than the old ones ever managed. the only decent citroens to be had are the old ones which have survived the massive depreciation and the subsequent death in the breakers. modern citroens are following that pattern with a vengence. you'd have to be a bit mad to buy a 1, 2 or 3 year old citroen and insane or on expenses to buy the C6

wait until the dross has been cleeared out of the system.

oops, too late.

They can't be as bad -two years ago the Picasso was top in class in customer satisfaction in Germany.

I tried to explain that bit about the C6 to a dealer... the concept of a

50000EUR Citroën just won't work, especially not if it's as boring as a C6. If you want to buy Avantgarde in that Class, buy a Lexus Hybrid. If you'd like an extravagant alternative with latin flair, go for a Lancia. If you'd like to have that Citroën feeling, buy a restaurated CX or DS, and a daily driver.

I wanted to get along the lines of 'demo car, a year old, 35000, three year's maintenance and warranty, and a guaranteed take-back value of

15000'. They were happy to sell me a one year car for 35000, would even offer the maintenance but wouldn't accept the 15000 take back.

Picture that - a then four year old top of the line used car for less than a third of list price in today's money. And they couldn't accept that. So far for confidence in one's products :(

cu .\\arc

Marc Gerges ( snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com) gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying :

Unfortunately, I think you're right there, but...

I've not driven a C6 - but those I know who have wouldn't agree.

Oh, PLEASE! Hybrid is an utter con, greenwash. And a Lexus? "Avantgarde"? On what planet?

Not in the UK. New Lancias haven't been sold here for many years. You can't get a Vel Satis here, either, any more.

That's not far off the going rate for many new £30-40k cars in the UK - even assuming good condition and not excessive mileage.

Hell, when I bought my XM the dealer had one in stock. Already registered, and they wanted £17k against £22k list. The minimum guaranteed future value on a three year deal was £2500. (and, yes, I did ask if I could instead have the four-year old one outside, with £8k in the windscreen, for £2500...)

I want a Vel Satis with C6 suspension and S class running gear with an interior by Connely & Gaudy, painted by bosch.

H Bosch.

Oh, yes, it drives good - but not special. Test drive a DS against 70's cars, or a CX against 80's cars. They're in a league of their own in certain respects, and utterly inadequate in others. The C6 is doing fine. Not more. Not enough for the enthusiasts, not enough for those that aren't attached to the company.

YES! Controversy! Some would never buy one, some would never buy something else. Not for brand awareness, or for good marketing, or the desire to have something unconventional. But because there's a real difference, and you can have an opinion about.

I drive a hybrid as well as a DS. Both times there's been a bunch of engineers building the best car they could, reinventing the idea of how a car works in certain areas where they found the then current solutions inadequate, ignoring conventions. Marvellous.

Ugh. That's a sad thing, then.

They are being sold in homeopathic doses here (Luxembourg), but very remarkable on the street.

Well, benchmark in that class are the germans, they bring 50%+ of their new value. Not that I'd ever buy an E-Class for a thousand other reasons...

And what exactly was their justification?

cu .\\arc

Marc Gerges ( snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com) gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying :

A hybrid what? A Toyota Pious?

Hybrids can ONLY give a benefit in terms of localised zero-emissions - and the Pious in zero-emissions mode is slower than a 2cv. Only a two mile battery range, too...

Realism?

I won't even honor that ;-)

It's not an electric car, it's a hybrid. It doesn't aspire to outperform a 2CV on batteries only.

Let me tell you, in 'normal mode' it outperforms a lot of cars. Nothing's better at delivering torque than a big badass electric traction motor. They had to give it quite restrictive antislip, else it would've curled up the bitumen on the road ;-)

It consumes 5l/100km and generates 104 g of CO2 per km. I think that's important. And, important as well, it does that by employing hugely innovative technology. Looking at the Prius' setup of a planetary gear set, an engine and two electric motors triggers exactly the same bits in me than looking at the DS' hydropneumatic suspension, gear box and brakes. It's the kind of thing that, once you understand its functioning, it blows off your head.

And you still bought it?

Congratulations! :-)

cu .\\arc

Marc Gerges ( snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com) gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying :

If the hair shirt fits...

True. But the performance is SO poor in ZEV mode that you really can't help kicking the petrol motor in.

The one I test drove certainly didn't.

Only because the fuel economy and CO2 tests favour the hybrid model by starting the test with full batteries and finishing with much flatter ones - which, in real life, don't work. What are you *really* getting in real life use? Many reports in the UK say about 2/3 of the claimed economy.

Not to mention the rather unpleasant battery chemistry...

Besides, that's thirstier than many diesel "non-hybrid Cits".

No, I bought a 4yo one elsewhere for £4.5k... and still have it six and a half years later...

Had to google that.

What bit exactly of 'it's not an electric car' is unclear to you? The only usage for the electric mode is 'honey, could you get the car out of the garage and bring it to the front door'.

Then you didn't kick it as required. Cars with a variable transmission appear sluggish because the engine note doesn't change during acceleration.

I'm getting a honest 5 in summer, around 5.5 in winter (driving short distances mostly, the combustion engine not switching of because heating is required).

I don't buy the bit with tests favoring it - those tests were in usage before hybrids existed. The standard test runs for around 20 minutes. A fully charged battery, with very careful driving to aim for maximum discharge may buy you an advantage in the first five minutes of a test. But even then...

You are aware that you can't plug one in, so it's not trivial to fully charge the battery in conditions different than driving downhill for a long distance.

Which causes scrap dealers to buy them at a premium, because they recycle so well. Old wife's tale, really...

Quite wrong, if you compare within the same class of car. And if the diesel may end up cheaper in consumption, it'll have a very tough time beating the hybrid on emissions.

Good move :-)

I'm still sad my father sold his 3.0 Diravi XM. Sure, it had fixed monthly maintenance session to repair it. But when it drove, it was stellar.

cu .\\arc

Marc Gerges ( snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com) gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying :

So the only real benefit - local zero-emission mode - is useless...

I was bending the floor.

True. It made a lot of noise, and not much else. It just went straight to peak revs, and slowly gathered speed.

Oh, and on my test drive - about 20 miles - it managed about 35mpg according to the computer...

C4 1.6HDi - 60.1mpg (4.7l/100km) combined, 125g/km C3 1.4HDi - 64.2mpg (4.4l/100km), 114g/km Pious - 65.7mpg (4.3l/100km), 104g/km Not so far off...

...and there's a diesel/hybrid B'lingo coming very soon.

Did I mention it's not an electric car?

And I would consider lower fuel consumption a real benefit. But then, that's just me.

Now there you are - these things come with an accelerator pedal. Kicking the floor is not supposed to accelerate it ;-)

Depending on your definition of 'slowly'. My wife has a 2.0 HDI (307), that feels a lot quicker. On paper it's at exactly the same acceleration than the Prius. In reality it doesn't stand a chance because my wife doesn't dare to jump the clutch at 4000 and torture the gearbox on every gear change.

Sorry - I never grasped the concept of mpg's. Whenever I thought I had conversion factors, somebody told me it was the wrong miles or the wrong gallons.

Depends on the point of view. It beats the C4 by about 20% in CO2 and by about 10% in consumption. Not even mentioning the higher energy content of Diesel fuel compared to gas.

Oh, and it out accelerates the C4 by a second and a half to 100 km/h.

I am waiting on that. Seriously. I like Citroëns a lot and would enjoy buying one with 21st century technology.

cu .\\arc