o/s side light help

The message from "TonyB" contains these words:

Only in the transitional form, which most people have gone beyond by now.

Excellent. I see you are keeping up the tradition of including a speeling mistook in any grammar flame.

I think not reading what I'm saying is the rude bit! "Cauli's" is NOT acceptable as a plural for "cauli". Thge elision nhas occurred in the si ngular - why would it need marking only in the plural?

I'm beginning to think you guys are trying to wind me up. Where's the spelling mistake Malc? TonyB

I'm not sure what you are trying to say Ian. No greengrocer would attempt to sell a single cauliflower so by putting a sign up that says "Cauli's" he implies he has more than one cauliflower to sell. Hence "Cauli's" is correct whereas "Lemon's" is not correct no matter how many he is trying to sell.

The reason "Cauli's" is correct is that the apostrophe denotes the missing "flowers" part and does not imply posession nor is it an abbreviation. These are the other possible uses of the apostrophe. One may only use the word "Cauli's" as a pleural, in the singular it would indeed be incorrect. If the shop has only one cauliflower to sell, then the sign "Cauli's" would be wrong, because "Cauli's " equals "Cauliflowers"

You say "Cauli's" is NOT acceptable as a plural for "cauli" but you don't attempt to explain why. I'm trying to show you that it's the same as the word "photo'" where "photo's" is equal to "photographs".

TonyB

TonyB

Plural.

Pleural: the serous membrane covering the lungs and lining the walls of the thoracic cavity; the two layers thus enclose a potential space - the pleural cavity.

But it is traditional to include at least one mistake in any post criticising someone else's spelling or grammar. It's an old charter or something.

The message from "TonyB" contains these words:

Pleural?

:-)) You are quite right of course. I work in a hospital and forgot where I was for a moment.

TonyB

Tony, I know all about the apostrophe marking an elision. Look at the sentence you just wrote. Now tell me why "photo's" is equal to "photographs" when "photo" is apparently not equal to "photograph"? It is arguable that the apostrophe should be used in these words - it would be an archaic and very strange usage, but it's arguable - but if it is, it should be used in the singular. It is never acceptable to use an apostrophe to form a plural. *

To go back to what I said in the first place - "cauli's" is - just - arguably correct as a plural for "cauli' " but NOT for "cauli".

• There is a more respectable exception, which I think is both archaic and American - an apostrophe used to be used for plurals of single letters and abbreviations. "Mind your p's and q's" and "M.P.'s" are not so much wrong as to be avoided.

No argument from me on that point.

-- Malc

Heh.

best and longest thread have ever seen about a light bulb...

LOL (or light bulb's)

So do I as an electronics engineer.

I didn't say "photo", I said "photo'" - with an apostrophe. That is exactly how I write it if I'm abbreviating. I would do the same with "cauli'" should I ever abbreviate the word cauliflower. However, as I said earlier, some words which strictly speaking should use an apostrophe have become so much part of our language without that I don't think anyone would argue that it should be in there. Such examples I gave earlier included "taxi". In that respect we are in agreement, but my original argument that the greegocer's "cauli's" was correct, albeit for the wrong reason possibly, still stands.

TonyB

Well we seem to be in agreement - if you actually read what I said!

I'll try to rephrase it. It is not incorrect to use an apostrophe in those abbreviated words - although in my opinion it is now unusual. It IS wrong to add an apostrophe to form the plural.

That is why my original comment was that cauli's was acceptable as a plural ONLY if cauli' was used as the singular.

Now, by all means read what I say and disagree with it. If you just skim over it, tell me I'm wrong and deliver a lecture on a largely unrelated subject you will find out just how rude I *can* be! :-)

That'll do for me. We seem to have strayed just a little off-topic so if we're in agreement maybe it's best to leave it at that.

TonyB

But the apostrophe is not used to indicate an abbreviation; it is used to indicate a contraction (such as the wi in I'll or the o in didn't) or possesive (as in my car's wheels) but not a plural (unless you're a grocer and so benefit from the licence to use apostrophes in that position). If you wish to indicate an abbreviation, use a full stop [American "period"] - but that is not done if the abbreviation is pluralised (again, unless you are a grocer, of course).

The correct plural of cauli is caulies. Or is it caulis? Perhaps I'll just have the peas.

See also "Eats Shoots and Leaves" by Lynn Truss - and if you dare, the newsgroup alt.possessive.its.has.no.apostrophe :))

In the context I used it, I hope it was clear that I used "abbreviation" literally, meaning "shortening" - the examples being discussed are all contractions.

If you have "Eats, Shoots and Leaves" (DO try to get it wrong when it matters!) you might want to check it - it is Lynn Truss who maintains that an apostrophe was formerly required in the plural of initialisms such as "m.p.".