Veggie oil - the truth.

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Having scanned though the previous thread I figure that you guys should really know the real life experiences of a close relative and his good friend who both run Xants on oil.
Three have been used extensively, a bog standard 19, a 19 Turbo, and a series 2 2.1 Turbo. The 19 turbo has now been running on exclusively oil for over a year - no diesel at all except when in a dire "Oh sh*t no fuel!!" situation. The 19 was run for about a year and the 2.1 has now been going for about 9 months. All on the same exclusive-except-emergency basis.
None of the cars has been modified in any way shape or form (except the addition of a cleverly shaped funnel in the boot for topping up!!!).
None of the cars has experienced any failure of any fuel related component.
None of the cars has failed to start (and we live in a northerly climate!), they are however just a little sluggish to start on *very* cold winter mornings (say minus 5 and below...)
The tax aspect is interesting, it is a completely unenforcable law in the UK, remember to prosecute they need the evidence, the only evidence they have is the volume of oil in your tank. As it is a tax issue, all they can do is bill you for the tax and prosecute if you don't pay. Running your car on oil IS NOT AND WILL NOT EVER BE ILLEGAL IN THE UK. So where does this leave you? In a very good position as it goes. If you get pulled and have your tank dipped, plod will try to convince you that it is illegal - it just isn't, tell him so (if it comes out with a pinkish tinge you *are* stuffed as agricultural and heating diesel *IS* illegal...). All plod can do is tell H.M. C&E that you have a tank full of oil and it is up to them to recover the duty due ON THAT TANKFUL, there is no other concrete evidence that you have used or will use more oil. When you tell them that their cost to recover that duty is going to be more than the duty itself, you should hear no more. If you do hear more, keep pushing the point that it is costing them more and more money to recover the piffling amount of tax and that it wouldn't look good if it hit The Sun...
...keep going right up until the point where they give you the "Stump up within 7 days or we will take you to court" letter then send them the cheque for the couple of quid that they will be asking for and make the point again that it has just cost them X-hundred pounds of tax payers money to recover 2.74 in tax etc...
...you will hear no more!!! Even if you do get stopped again, all you will have to pay is the duty on the amount of oil you have in your tank at the time assuming that your protestations about tax payers money etc etc...
So what else to you need to know? Not a lot except that you do get *very* funny looks buying an entire trolleyful of Tesco's cheapest!!! And yes, your car does smell... *appetising*!!! I once followed one of these Xants for about 40 miles and I was STARVING by the time we reached our destination...
Happy oil burning guys!
CAS
PS. Anyone got a 2.5 XM in SEI spec they want to sell me? I could use a bit of cheap luxurious motoring!
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On Mon, 24 Oct 2005 11:49:28 +0100, "CAS"

<snip>
<snip>
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/2312521.stm
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Message i.d.:< inspired me,

On a weird way the link confirms, vegetable oil is popular and probably safe to use. Dodging taxes, a sport for some, is easier with a diesel engine.
I am not sure how the Dutch Customs treat the veggiedrivers.
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wrote:

can
car
Journo's hey! Just cos the Beeb says it doesn't mean its right.
As I said, red diesel = illegal, bio diesel = perfectly fine.
Tax evasion = illegal and carries the penalties noted in the article. Stump up the tax and you haven't committed any offence. As to the impounding of cars, well that is quite frankly a joke - how can you (if you decided to) legitimately stump up your fuel duty on spec?
If plod continues doing this they may well arrest the wrong bloke and end up paying substantial compo...
CAS
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CAS ( snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com) gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying :

If you don't mind, I'll go with the Beeb over "some bloke on the net"...

If you pay the tax.

Right. So biodiesel without paying the tax = illegal.

Stump up the tax on *all they believe you've used*... This is HMC&E (Well, HMR&C this week) - The VAT Man. They don't have to knock. They don't have to say please. You do NOT piss around with them, because they won't piss around with you.
And don't forget that if you're caught using Veg *without* having told HMR&C that you're going to be, you are already committing an offence.
You may like to read this :-
http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPortalWebApp/channelsPortalWebApp.portal ?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=pageExcise_ShowContent&propertyType=document&id=HMCE _CL_000205
(http://tinyurl.com/a6x2f )
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hehehe - fair enough!!!

No. That is not the point I'm making. Having red diesel in your tank at any time is illegal. Having chip oil in your tank is simply NOT illegal. The only offence is not paying road fuel duty on it. Plod should not be impounding cars at the roadside - THAT is illegal!!!

Yes, correct. Chip fat in tank = legal. Driving car with chip fat in tank and not paying duty = illegal.

Yes they do have to say please. The HM C&E are legally bound by tax and common law the same as every other person, company or agency in the United Kingdom. They cannot tax you on income they cannot prove you have earned, they cannot tax you on fuel they cannot prove you have used. Simple as that, its the law.

That seems to be the case, however it could (and should) be easily argued that as this is becoming more commonplace the C&E should be issuing notices, advertisments etc relating to the obligation of the user. Until they do a decent brief will get you off...

Excellent find that man!! Particularly the part where if you register, they send you a form every month which you send back as NILL until the month where you get your tank dipped at which point you declare how much was in your tank at the time... perfect! You then continue to send in NILLs and when they ask you say "I'm using diesel - I can't be arsed getting stopped". When you get dipped again, "I decided that actually I might give it another go...", etc, etc...
CAS
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wow the C&E have some forms dont they ... I cannot fond the one to which you refer ??
sound like a good wheeze to me ... I'm so happy to have halved my fuel lbill since selling the Volvo (T5 .. mmmmm ....) - halving it again would really help !!!
Brgds
Steve
PS - how do you do those replies with all the >> etc ???

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drd ( snipped-for-privacy@CITYZOO.COM) gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying :

Any decent news client will do that - together with posting your reply at the bottom, where it should be. It won't do the trimming of excess rubbish, though - you need to do that yourself.
<checks headers> Ah. You're using Outlook Express. That explains it all...
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gurgled happily, sounding much like they were

Yebut so do I. My version of OE seems to put the appropriate symbols in etc. and posts at the bottom and I've never had a problem with it doing otherwise on all the versions I've used.
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So does drd's version; but he's fallen into the 'cursor at the top of the body' trap and probably hasn't noticed the reams of quoted stuff below his message.
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gurgled happily, sounding much like they were

aha - like this huh?
apologies for past lack of netiquette ....

best regards to all
Steve
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Yes but you also need to snip signatures too, otherwise you still get another couple of lines of crap creeping in (and there's usually crap in my sig)
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snip

That seems to be definitive as far as the UK fuel duty regulations go; essentially you have to register in advance and then make monthly returns (including NIL returns) for all oil used as road vehicle fuel, and pay the duty due within 15 days of the end of each month. The tax man can inspect your 'premises' (but not private dwellings) and vehicles, and you must make sure that the oil used is within the chemical composition set down. Your measurements must also be up to standard, and if you use any special recipe then you may have to comply with 'health and safety' and pollution regulations too.
You have to keep your records for at least six years. At present, there is no on-line facility for the monthly declarations or payments (and when there is, don't be too surprised if it only works properly for certain web-browsers and doesn't work at all half the time).
If you buy the oil in the bottles or cans used for selling domestic or commercial cooking oil, I would guess that the quantities marked on those containers would be 'accurate enough' for declaring fuel tax; that would be a point to discuss further with your friendly tax-collector, perhaps, along with the little matter of the chemical composition of each batch.
Presumably, if a police or tax spot-check reveals that there is veggie oil in your tank, production of your fuel-tax documents and receipts should be accepted as evidence that you are not breaking the law. If the police are impounding vehicles on the spot, you'd better have those papers with you. A letter to the local Chief Constable stating that you use vegetable oil as road fuel and that you comply with the taxation regulations, and asking for his reassurance in writing that your vehicle will not be impounded, might be a good idea. It might even get the local cops to run their noddy-cars on it too :))
The vehicle maker is probably best placed to advise what if any alterations would be sensible for running on 'straight vegetable oil'. I wouldn't put it past the garage trade to charge heavily for work that isn't really necessary - or even for not actually doing anything.
The handbook for my ZX 1.9D states that only 5% vegetable oil added to normal diesel fuel is 'within specification'. I don't know what the basis for that statement is; perhaps Citroen are covering their back by not seeming to encourage people to use 'alternative' fuels.
As a side note, I remember that when I lived in Salford in the '70s there was a garage near Manchester city centre that sold ICI 'synthetic petrol' at the pumps; my 2CV was perfectly happy running on it, although it was inclined to 'foam up' when filling the tank. I believe that was a 'by-product' from some chemical process.
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Looks like a case of find your local biodiesel supplier buy a tankful and keep the receipt in your car. When you get pulled by the plod present the biodiesel receipt as 'evidence' that the car contains legitimate tax paid chip fat, drive away. Many biodiesel outlets are selling 5% mixes (5% vegetable oil, 95% derv) but there are an increasing amount selling pure biodiesel which presumably would smell just as bad (or good depending on what you're opinion is) as regular cooking oil unless they're treating it in some way.
Check out:
http://www.biodieselfillingstations.co.uk/outlets.htm
for details of your local tax paid supplier.
Regards, Jason.
On Mon, 24 Oct 2005 13:01:18 +0100, Ian Dalziel

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Message i.d.:< inspired me,

The smell is awfull and now that I know how it smells, I have smelled it before quite often.
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I'm sure that some heavy lorries are using it. I drove over 200 miles yesterday and some of the smells were distinctly un-diesel.
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CAS ( snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com) gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying :

Indeed. Surely it'd make far more sense to go down the cash & carry to get it by the 20l drum? Or even talk to the chippy, find out who he uses as a wholesaler?
I'd imagine they'd be QUITE happy delivering (say) 100+ litres per month...?
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Message i.d.:< gurgled happily, sounding

I guess chippies (the English I learn in this newsgroup,,) use hard fat, not liquid. It only becomes liquid when it's used for some time. Now those hard lumps are hard to squeeze into the tank.

Out here you need to know someone that knows someone with a special card. Those cards are only available for companies and give access to wholesales with friendly prices. Gonna try, I know someone :-)
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2Rowdy ( snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com) gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying :


No, they use big 20l drums of liquid vegetable oil.

Hmmm. I wonder where I put my membership card for Makro (big cash&carry chain) in Agadir, Morocco. I must see how far it gets me with Makro UK...
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Sadly true; real lard is rarely used by chippies these days. Probably because the oil is so much easier to handle.
snip
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