another oil viscosity for my rear axle?

Hi classic whizzkids,

About the rear axle of my P4 100 (Rover): factory spec's say EP 90 oil. In a recent (german) oldtimer magazine, in it's issue about oils for oldtimers, was stated: "..and when the modern SAE 90 gearoil has come out of the rear axle and wetted your brake linings again, you should think about SAE 140 oil, before you change the seals". Last year I changed the seal on one of my rear axle halves, just because there was oil (coming out of the axle) on my brake linings. (Brakes were lined anew..). A few months later, I noticed leakage again (I admit, I hadn't changed the collar fixating the wheelbearing, on which the seal must 'seal', and which had some 'tracks' in it (because this is a hell of a job, or must be done in a workshop). I did mount the new seal the right way: with the 'open' side of the U to the center of the axle.

My question: can I use that 140 oil for my axle without desastrous effects to the gear-set in my differential??

Would be pleased to hear your advice..

TX, rob

Reply to
robwill2
Loading thread data ...

I would suggest to rectify the problem. Not the oil.

Reply to
ops

The differential will not be damaged by using EP140 instead of EP90 - but EP140 creeps and will still leak onto your brake linings, so there is no point in trying it.

I have owned 3 P4s over the years and I didn't have axle leaks on any of them, so I think you have a fault that needs fixing rather than an inescapable weakness.

Just a thought - has this axle got a breather, and if so is it clogged? If so, then pressure building up would force the oil out past the seals. You could check this first, but as you mentioned seal in the singular, my guess is that you are not losing oil both sides, which I would expect from a pressure build up, in which case you are left with the unhappy conclusion that tracks in the collar are leaving an escape route for the oil.

Jim

Reply to
Jim Warren

You can only use EP140 if it was the originally recommended grade -- in your case I suspect it was, however the most common reasons for oil leaking on to brake linnings is either a blocked air vent on the axle or overfilling -- the oil level must be checked with the car level ideally when warm.

Reply to
bonzo

EP 90

oils for

axle

SAE 140

just

linings.

changed

'seal',

job, or

of the U

desastrous

I would look into the possibility of fitting the seal in such a way that the sealing lip runs on an unworn part of the collar. Maybe by fitting a 1-2mm spacer behind the seal. If that is impractical, due to lack of space, try looking for a narrower seal with the same i/d and o/d as the old one. If unsucessful, look for a narrower one with the correct i/d, but a smaller o/d. Then have a sleeve fitted to increase the o/d to the right size. Less hassle than replacing the worn part, and equally as effective. Also has the advantage that all the work, apart from the actual fitting of the seal, is done without even getting your hands dirty. :-) I recently used the first method on the twin camshafts of a Celica GT4. No sign of any leaks after several thousand miles. What I can assure you of, is that thicker oil will not stop your leak. At best it might slow it down a little, but it certainly wont cure it. Mike.

Reply to
Mike G

You can buy thin sleeves to slip onto worn shafts - fix with loctite for repairs.

rm

Reply to
ops

"ops" >

such a

collar.

narrower

i/d,

o/d

from

loctite for

I think not. We're talking about the wear on a shaft, caused by a lipseal. Any sleeve thin enough to be practical, would soon wear through, and tear the lip on the seal I think the sleeves you are referring to, are those meant for shafts or housings, where bearings have spun. Mike.

Reply to
Mike G

Note from the original post:

"A few months later, I noticed leakage again (I admit, I hadn't changed the collar fixating the wheel bearing, on which the seal must 'seal',"

No they are a stainless steel material and are used for this purpose.

The seals which are in the axles run on a removable collar/bearing retainer are are replaceable anyway. The bearing kits contain the bearing,retainer and seal (gasket if required).

r

Reply to
ops

Thank your for your thoughts... You have convinced me the solution the mag offered is a bodge, as the thicker oil will slip along the seal too, maybe it will do this a bit slower...

Jim's analysis is as sharp as a razorblade: the axle has a breather on it, it was not clogged (but dirty) as I was working on the axle; I took it off at that instance and cleaned it though: it may be one of the cleanest parts of the car now ;-))

Yes, the oil loss is on one side only (the right one); it started after I filled up the differential/axle in the manner prescibed in the manual (with EP90, with the volume it should take). Former owners seem to have had less oil in the system..

On the moment I changed the seal I noticed the tracks on the collar (the inner diameter of the seal runs on this), the old seal had a hardened inner diameter lip.. The tracks were circular, perpendicular to the length of the axle, and very 'smooth' (no sharp edges). At that moment I was told by other owners who had worked on their axles, not to worry on these tracks, but only mount a new seal and to leave the collar 'as is'... No good advice I guess.. :-(

On Mike's suggestions: I don't know if I can displace the seal -by using a piece as a washer or spacer- as I don't have the unit apart now (the car is on the road, but I will have to fix the problem for it's upcoming MOT test, as it will fail due to unequal braking effectivity).

The sleeve you mention: is this the 'speed sleeve system': a very thinwalled steel cylinder with a press-fit on the bad part, which covers the undulated surface with a new smooth one?? I once read about this but availability here (netherlands) will possible be a problem as it is a usa(?) system

rob

Reply to
robwill2

collar

had a

axle, and

their

and to

washer

the road,

as it

very

which

No. I'm not familiar with the 'speed sleeve system', but IMO it doesn't sound like a very satisfactory way of overcoming the problem of a groove worn by the lip on a seal. I've no doubt it would work. But for how long? For a 'show' car, probably long enough, but for one in regular use?

If it is, 'very thinwalled' as you say. How long do you think it would take for the new seal to wear through the sleeve. Bearing in mind that the new seals lip, would be rubbing on the sleeve harder, due to it running on a larger diameter than it was designed to accommodate. Thus increasing the wear on both sleeve and lip.

All of my suggestions were based on using a seal with the same bore size as the original, but with it's lip running on an unworn part of the collar. Either by displacing an original seal. Fitting a narrower seal with the same i/d and o/d as the original. Or failing that, by using a narrower seal, again with the same i/d as the original, but with a smaller o/d. Then making a sleeve, with an i/d to fit the smaller seals o/d, and making the sleeves o/d the same diameter as the original seal. A simple job to anyone with a lathe. I would be surprised if a seal to suit one of the above methods were unavailable. The range of sizes and types made is vast.

Another alternative, using the sleeve on collar principle, but not a thin sleeve, might be to find a seal with a larger bore diameter. At least 2mm larger, but otherwise the same size as the original. Then have a sleeve made to fit the collar, with it's o/d, polished to a smooth finish, to suit the new seals i/d. It should be made to be a nice hand slide fit on the collar, NOT a press fit. Then slip it on with a coating of Loctite hydraulic sealant, or bearing fit. In fact almost any hard setting sealant would do, but I think either of the two mentioned would be better.

Personally I would only choose this method as a last resort. As mentioned in my earlier post. The advantage with my earlier suggestions, are that if a narrower or different o/d seal is used, all the work is done before fitting, and fitting it should entail no more labour than that of simply replacing a worn seal.

At one time or another, I have used all of the methods I've mentioned. I can assure you that they all give similar results as those of fitting a new seal on a shaft without a wear problem. Mike.

Reply to
Mike G

snip

It's a standard method used in industry gives a log term cure, however may not be required in this case, 95% of problems which recurr in halfshaft seals are due to over filling/blocked vents. The other possible cause is if the new seal was are "new old stock" made partly of natural rubbber it could have shrunk & hardened due to loss of elastizier from the seal material, soaking the seal in "Wynns Oil Leak Stop" or similar before fitting and adding some to the diff oil may retore it to a working condition.

Reply to
bonzo

On a P4 Rover, the bearing is grease packed, if oil is present in the drums then as you rightly say the oil seal needs replacing, but the bearing is likely to have the grease washed out by the oil and ought to be replaced. When the seal was replaced, the O ring that is not shown in the manual should also be replaced, it is important as firstly it stops oil seeping down between the oil sleeve seal and the hub bearing housing, washing the grease out of the wheel bearing, and then leaking into the brake drum. It also stops oil escaping between the bearing housing and axle casing and running down the brake back plate.

Reply to
Tony Simons

it

it

regular

cure,

Have it your way, but speaking as a precision engineer, It's still a bodge AFAIC, and not a method I would recommend to anyone. If you don't believe me, I suggest you refer to some technical data on 'Perfect' type lipseals, and their fitment. Mike.

Reply to
Mike G

I understand Mike's technical considerations and his solutions for my problem. I found the source for these repair-sleeves: 'speedi sleeves'. When you google for 'Chicago Rawhide' you will get their homepage. I wonder too, how it is possible these very thinwalled steel sleeves, having a tight fit over an 'undulated' axle (or core) will give a very flat surface.. I wonder with him too how it is possible these sleeves will not wear very soon (due to the greater diameter), and possibly make it all worse...

rob

Reply to
robwill2

homepage.

will

The old surface the seal ran on was a smooth, perfectly round, ground diameter. Therefore, once it's cleaned up, apart from the worn groove, that surface will not distort even a very thin sleeve.

not wear

all

They can't make things worse. They'll probably reduce the life of a seal, but don't forget that the seal and sleeve could be replaced ad-infinitum. The damaged seal diameter will never get any worse than it is at present. You have nothing to lose by trying them. Even if the seal life is halved, that's still many thousands of miles before they start to leak. Maybe with limited facilities it's your best bet, but with a machine shop at my disposal, it's not a method I would choose myself. Mike.

Reply to
Mike G

MotorsForum website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.