Changes at DVLA - tell them what you think

Yesterday !

Yes you do talk total bollocks, all modern engines have to have cats' and their emissions are governed by law and not just if they are making smoke, why do you think I said 1975 ?...

So a 1975 car should pay more because it pollutes more (for the same mileage), is that what you are saying ?!...

Reply to
:::Jerry::::
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Sorry but it might have escaped you comprehension but the 1975 car still had to be built, even back then, and (some of) the pollution from that period of car manufacturing is still around and having to be dealt with. So if you take that into account the 1975 vehicle has an ever greater pollutant account, factories and manufacturing are far more environmentally friendly now that they were back in the 1970's.

whereas the SUV is being

But the modern engine is far more eco friendly than a 1970's engine, the pollutant levels are far higher from a '70's engine than a modern one.

Reply to
:::Jerry::::

Well there you go then, we must all have it off in the back of our classics to justify the free tax!

May as well have lunch first though...

Reply to
Willy Eckerslyke

I repeat, the 1975 car already exists. We can't alter the fact that it has been built. It would normally have been scrapped by the late eighties, disappearing from the equation and releasing more pollution in the process. By keeping it going, we are saving the environmental cost of building another one. Environmentally speaking, we are getting the car for free.

Sure, if we were comparing a 1975 car built today and used over the same annual mileage as an SUV built today, your argument might stand. But we're not.

Reply to
Willy Eckerslyke

That argument applies regardless of the age of the car.

Reply to
Dave Plowman (News)

Austin Healey springs to mind. And if you can afford one of these, you can afford road tax. ;-)

Reply to
Dave Plowman (News)

Depends what you mean by pollution. Everyone seems worried about global warming, and the main cause of this is said to be CO2 output. And CO2 output depends entirely on the amount of petrol burnt - catalytic convertors if anything increase the CO2 output of an engine.

Reply to
Dave Plowman (News)

I agree. But since the government don't seem to like taxing via the amount of fuel used, assuming that old cars do fewer miles, as per the current system is less unfair than full road tax for all cars.

Reply to
Willy Eckerslyke

Err how, the '75 car has already pit out more pollution than the modern SUV will ever put out !...

Reply to
:::Jerry::::

I'm not getting very far am I?

Let's get this straight, we're comparing two vehicles in 2004. There's nothing we can do about any accumulated pollution from thirty years ago, that's happened whether the car is used today or scrapped. We're comparing a brand new SUV, used for 10,000-15,000 miles a year (typical mileage for a modern car?), scrapped after ten years and replaced with a new one, against a 1975 car used for 3,000-6,000 miles (typical mileage for a classic?) and kept indefinitely. Emissions are a factor, but they're not the only way in which vehicles pollute.

Reply to
Willy Eckerslyke

Sorry but we are talking about the merits of running a 1975 car (that some say should be in the 'Historic taxation class) and a modern vehicle (the SUV example), both are taxed at the standard PLG class, some say that the 1975 car (the argument) is what is more eco friendly because it already exists. Or that is what I thought the discussion was about, if the 1975 car was built (as designed) today it would not be on the road due to the emissions legislation that is in force now.

Rubbish and what about the pollutants it will put out over your 10 tear period, this will be far more than those released by the modern SUV, otherwise the 30 year old engine design would still be in use - think about it...

Who says it will be scraped after 10 years, people assumed (in 1975) that a car built then would be scraped within 10 years but some have not been, why do you assume that this SUV will be.

and

But if we are talking about a 1975 designed car built now (the hypothetical case), that car would also get scraped at 10 years old, you are not comparing like for like.

Quite, and as I said, the 1975 costs more in pollutants from manufacture to scrap than a modern car has, even if both were built (as designed) today.

The only thing that has been saved by someone using an old car rather than a newly build car is that no pollutants have been released by the manufacturing of the new car or any from the scrapping of an old car - but the pollutants released by the old car now (and in some cases in the past) are still around - so if taxation was to be on pollutant levels the old car would cost more due to it higher over all pollutant levels.

Reply to
:::Jerry::::

Only a small percentage of the total pollution produced by a car is from exhaust emissions and service waste. Most of the pollution is caused by building and scrapping the car...

A car's life span is intended to be, 10 years. My Mini is over 40 years old... so in effect keeping the 1962 car running has "saved" the production and destruction of THREE other cars.

So what causes more pollution? A 1962 Mini driving as a daily car for

40 years, or building 4 cars and scrapping 3?

It's much more economical and better for the environment to drive "recycled" classics, like we all do!

-- Howard Rose

1966 VW Beetle 1300 Deluxe 1962 Austin Mini Deluxe 1964 Austin Mini Super Deluxe
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(cars on website)
Reply to
Howard Rose

In message , on Thu, 2 Sep 2004, ":::Jerry::::" writes

I'm "No traffic calming work shall be constructed or maintained in a carriageway so as to prevent the passage of any vehicle unless the passage of that vehicle is otherwise lawfully prohibited."

I can afford it, but for the amount that I use the car, it galls me that I have to, particularly as I was looking forward to claiming the exemption just before the rolling period was stopped :(

Whether I could afford to take every local authority to court who prevents my passage as at regulation 9 above, is another matter!

Capri RS3100

Reply to
Philip Stokes

t's only proper that people who preserve our heritage in the form of old motor cars should receive a subsidy. Hell, we should really be getting an extra annual grant from the EU as guardians of european culture.

Steve

Reply to
stevebowtie

Willy Eckerslyke (oss108no snipped-for-privacy@bangor.ac.uk) gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying :

I don't believe it anyway.

How can a 30mpg sub-one-ton car emit less "pollution" than a 15mpg 2.5 ton one? It can't. It just physically can't. Cats don't *remove* pollution, they chance it from the specific pollutants measured to the ones that aren't. It's - as usual - a con.

Reply to
Adrian

Even when engines are more efficient at what they do, ask yourself how come engines are getting physically smaller but delivering much more power ?

And we haven't even started to think about improvements in the aerodynamics etc. ....

Reply to
:::Jerry::::

They remove the toxic ones, while actually increase CO2 - the main greenhouse gas.

To listen to some, you'd think a cat equipped car produced clean 'air' out of the exhaust.

Reply to
Dave Plowman (News)

:::Jerry:::: ( snipped-for-privacy@privacy.net) gurgled happily, sounding much like they :::were saying :

1970 Citroen GS. 1.0. 55bhp. 2004 Toyota Yaris 1.0 65bhp. With 16v, variable valve timing, fully mapped ignition and injection etc. etc.

Wow. A lot of progress in 35 years.

Not that that answered the question.

Besides, in the real world, engines AREN'T getting smaller. 1970, a Ford Escort 1.1 was the "standard" family car. 2004 equivalent is a 1.8 Focus. It weighs 70% more. You want environment-friendly? That's NOT the way to do it.

Reply to
Adrian

Oh there's certainly been progress, but considering the number of modern vehicles with average fuel consumption figures on the wrong side of

30mpg, things haven't moved _that_ far. Even with emissions cleaned up, we are still burning fossil fuels, releasing carbon into the atmosphere.

Since the average speed of most SUVs is probably less than 15mph (school run), aerodynamics don't come into it.

Reply to
Willy Eckerslyke

You obnviously havn't seen the relitive sizes of each unit

No it hasn't, because you are one of those people with little or no knowledge.

Now you really are showing yourself up as a total halfwit idiot and fool.

Reply to
:::Jerry::::

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